Rotary Engine Failure due to Side Rotor/Side Rotor Housing Clearance..

[Bryan@BNR]

Originally Posted by Herblenny

That's interesting Bryan. So statically you have seen 0 out of 100+ engine failure you've seen that was caused by rotor clearance issue?

I'm going to call Luis and see how many he has seen... I'm just curious..

I have seen 2 or 3. One engine was in my other first gen that I ran 19 psi with a Greddy T88 on pump gas. The EGT's got up to 1800F and the compression springs collapsed. When I took it a part the rotor bearing was fine but the tips of the rotor in the front made tip contact with the irons and also the faces of the rotor kissed the rotor housing.

Alright. Now I will stop typing. I quit!

[dregg100]

i have side and compression face clearanced rotors in my "street" car...

but seriously guys, chill. everybody has their ways of building engines and their little "secrets." just let it go. let charlie's build thread be his build thread, not a bicker fest. i have alot of respect for both of you (phil and glen), but if you go back and read through this entire thread you will probably say wow.

goodluck with the engine charlie, cant wait to see it done. ill probably have you some numbers about the time you get your car done. lol

[charlies7]

Originally Posted by dregg100

i have side and compression face clearanced rotors in my "street" car...

but seriously guys, chill. everybody has their ways of building engines and their little "secrets." just let it go. let charlie's build thread be his build thread, not a bicker fest. i have alot of respect for both of you (phil and glen), but if you go back and read through this entire thread you will probably say wow.

goodluck with the engine charlie, cant wait to see it done. ill probably have you some numbers about the time you get your car done. lol

Thanks Masin,

I dont care about the bickering though, to me its informative and I hope others can get some good info from this thread.

I want to make a minimal 375 whp on my setup, 400 would be nice. Just be a quick little NA car .

[glenrx7]

Phil, in the begining I tried to get the point across that we are increasing the clearence that mazda already designed for stock outout...

I am far from arrogant becuase I did not want to go into a large discussion on how we do it ...I also did not want to post some elses explanation once you did it for me I felt it would not hurt to elaborate.

I have a track record that proves what I do works and I am going to live by that becuase it is tested. I do understand your point and i wish I would have handled it different , I kinda stay back usually due to the fact that this is one of the things I am not good at (discussing our techniques with out giving to much away).

I have had some really bad expirences when it comes to trying to discuss what we do. I have spent countless hours testing and studing rotary engines. I feel like I have earned my knowlage and it is very important to me.

Now to get to the issue at had, I would think if it is even a remote possiblity of having issues with clearence any builder would take precuasions to make sure it was no longer a risk even if it is a small risk. I would be arrongant if I said well i dont think it will happen therefore its not going to. Like for instance the rotors going from side to side under load, if it is even the slitest of possiblities would it not be a disservice to your customer not to atleast regonize that its possible and try and account for it????

My point is this, even the slitest chance of the rotors needing clearcence would it not be better to have the clearnce?? When you look at the over all cost of an engine the cost of clearncing is negligable. I am not arrogant in fact the only reason I am on here is to help the communitee infact that is why we do what we do. Tom and I as the owners of AZRR started this becuase we are selves could not find a builder that would fit our needs we both are rotor heads first

[Herblenny]

Glen, That's funny you said that... because this was your first respond when i wanted to clear up what you meant by clearancing rotors.

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Phill, its just not something I am going to discuss. I dont want charlie to feel like he cant share his project ...I am not going to elaborate on our processes.

I am not going to disagree with you about how you should of handled it from beginning.. but you continue to tell me to look back and read but I still don't see you answering my questions until I posted bit more details to what you might be doing.
Even in the most recent post..

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Phil, in the begining I tried to get the point across that we are increasing the clearence that mazda already designed for stock outout...

here is a question for you.. So, how many engines you broke down that was street driven and failure was due to clearancing??

I'm in a field where stats matter.. so, lets see the stats.

The thing is that, in order to be scientific and state that you have experience and so called 'track record' to prove it only makes me want to ask you more question. Why? because realistically I know in order to find out longevity and endurance of the engine it would take someone to put real world miles. Unless you been building engines since you were a kid and scientifically documented, I can't quite believe what you say. I mean its like when I had a chance to ask Ianetti about his seals.. I was surprised he said not to buy his seals for street use. And I know he's a scientist and I believe what he said to me.. which was, in the real world the engine experience far more variable than on the track.. And he pointed out to me that Mazda spent their time experimenting and came up with the seals..

Glen, I understand that this thread has turned into back and forth bickering. Maybe you misunderstood what I was asking and maybe I misunderstood what you are stating.. Who knows.. I know you keep mentioning about your secrets... Sure, I respect that, but maybe as a vendor/professional maybe you need understand that explanation vs. hard number is completely different. You don't need to be so defensive when what you might be doing is something that's already been done but spec might be slightly different. Who knows.. Hope you understand this time what I'm getting at.

[glenrx7]

Would you expect coke to give Pepsi it recipe? Come its the same basic thing it soda why would they not want there specifics to be know by everyone??


Oh and Phill "track record" means I do have stats that prove what we do works out of over 100 engines I have two fail, and those were arguable not my issues.

Phil make point man you have so far just teaken shots at me, this gets ingonore by me so give me something to understand please

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Would you expect coke to give Pepsi it recipe? Come its the same basic thing it soda why would they not want there specifics to be know by everyone??


Oh and Phill "track record" means I do have stats that prove what we do works out of over 100 engines I have two fail, and those were arguable not my issues.

LOL! I guess it continues on..

I don't know where in the world you still think I'm asking you for your specs... I've repeated over and over and I don't want to know your stinking specifics of your "recipe". LOL! Seriously, I don't care!!!

Second, I didn't ask how many engine you build failed. BUT I asked how many engine you broke down, that was street driven, that needed a rebuilt because of the clearance issue. I'm assuming you get your customer's engines and then you break it down and inspect??? So, I'm asking you how many of those were failure due to clearance issues!! Because if HUGE number of engines are failed due to that specific issues than I will admit that my statement about clearance is NOT Necessary is wrong.. But so far, that's not the case by numbers given by my builder and BNR...

And yes, I'm sure you and 99% of the builders out there will say the same thing that its not your fault that the engine failed.. So, no need to state that..

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Phil make point man you have so far just teaken shots at me, this gets ingonore by me so give me something to understand please

LMAO! I can't even understand what you just said above.. make what point?? and only shots I might of made is based on your statements that were somewhat false and misleading. And I have no clue what, "ingonore" is...

But my argument at this point is, is clearancing the rotor for street driven engine necessary?? As you disagreed that when I stated that its 'NOT necessary'. And the point I'm trying to make (if you want me to make some sort of point at this point) is that its not as there are thousands of engines that has stock clearance (NOT AZRR's special proprietary clearancing but with Mazda spec) and have lasted. Just trying to make the point that its not necessary and that statistic of number of engines you have broken down with this issue will resolve the point at hand...

So, did I make my point?? Hope that's clear to you.

[glenrx7]

Phil Chucky is right lets take this to pm or leave it be...Do what you do and I will do what I do

[Herblenny]

If you wish Glen, but I'm just trying to clarify why clearancing the rotor for street engine is not necessary as you disagreed in the past.. Just wanted to know how many you've seen with this specific failure. But, we'll take it to PM if you wish.

[glenrx7]

I really cant tell you a number....honesty Phil it been a long time, i have been tearing engines down for a really long time I would say 20 out of 100 had contact after going big single. The issue is that the rotors being clearence may not have been the issue there were so many issues, broken apex seal, carbon lock, detonation etc.

Now this is why it comes to a professional opinion, you may get away with it you may not...I dont want to risked it. If their was a big risk in having more clearence i would worry but there is not. So the risk out ways not doing, but again this is my professional opinion. Phil your guy may never have had an issue so in his professional opinion he say its not worth it. I was not saying anything about his skills I dont know the guy but I do know I believe in it.

I built an engine with no clearence (stock rotors) it blew up two reasons one the rotors hit the side plates and it had looked liek the shaft deformed., Rebuilt it not changing anything but clearnce the rotors and it is still make power today that was years ago.

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by glenrx7

I really cant tell you a number....honesty Phil it been a long time, i have been tearing engines down for a really long time I would say 20 out of 100 had contact after going big single. The issue is that the rotors being clearence may not have been the issue there were so many issues, broken apex seal, carbon lock, detonation etc.

OK, So really long time as in 25+ years?? J/K..

So you still didn't quite answered my question.. close.. but not quite. My question was, how many street driven as in NOT HIGH HP motor or high REV motor that failed due to side clearancing of the rotor. By the way, I never disagreed that clearancing the rotor for HIGH HP or HIGH Rev motors

[Herblenny]

Well, i've decided to use my contacts and call/email several other builders in the country to get some information about this..

One builder in LA (Louisiana) stated to me that he has not seen any engine he took apart that was failure due to clearancing the rotor. He also stated that its not necessary for street engine thats not high HP or high Rev.

Another builder in NE stated to me, "the only time i have seen failures of that nature (rotor hitting side housing) is from a spun bearing due to lack of oil.
for the builds you describe (less than 400rwhp and 8k rpm) we do not clearance the rotors as you describe."
**Description I gave is the RB quote regarding clearancing rotors**

Next builder I've contact is someone most of us here knows...
He stated this..

I take apart a lot of FD and FC engines, probably over 500 since I started in 2001.

These are stock (built in japan when the car was new), mazda remans, and a few outside builds as well.

I do not see any FAILURES as a result of rotor to iron clearance. What I do see is scraping and rubbing on the side tips of the rotor, especially on FD engines for some reason. By this I mean, the material above the corner seal, usually shows signs of rubbing the iron walls. This is from shaft flex at high rpm, which lets the rotor move out of parallel alignment with the iron. Oddly, the FD rotors weigh exactly the same as the 89-91 turbo and 89-91 non turbo rotors, however the FC engines rarely exhibit this problem. I am not sure if this is because FD owners are more abusive in general toward their engines and stay at or near redline more often, or if it is due to the power output of the engine being somewhat higher. I lean toward the former, since 50-100bhp should not be significant enough to cause shaft flex in itself, the consistent use of high rpm would have to do it. Note that the 89-91 non turbo engine actually has a higher redline and rev limiter than the FD, but I still rarely see the symptoms of rubbing on those rotors, while almost EVERY fd engine I take apart has it. I still think that is because FD drivers are more prone to high rpm driving than FC drivers.

This "damage" never adversely affects the rotor, corner seal, or iron. The only time I see genuine damage to either, is when an oiling issue has arisen, such as oil starvation, a spun bearing, etc. that lets the rotor come into much more significant contact with the iron.

I'm waiting few other builder responses to this topic.

[glenrx7]

Ok =, Phil you have demestrated that you have something against me ...

Everythign i say gets ripped up ...It been a long time or me 10+ years...Sorry if i was not spesific on such an important part of my statement

So I am done with it....

Hey Chucky ...porting is comign soon this should be fun...Please dont post anymore of the picture here

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Ok =, Phil you have demestrated that you have something against me ...

Everythign i say gets ripped up ...It been a long time or me 10+ years...Sorry if i was not spesific on such an important part of my statement

LOL! No I just wanted to make a point and to your disagreement regarding clearancing is 'not necessary', which means NOT required, or essential on street application motors. I asked you multiple times to tell me how many engines you've broke down that were street driven engine (low HP, below 8000RPM) failed because of so called oem clearance of the rotor and you dodged the questions. Just as you been trying to make your point why, I been trying to make a point that its not.. Just trying to reason with you... maybe its my pitbull mentality?? who knows..

Bottomline, people could make their decision based on facts. Which I've taken time to ask builders who have seen many many engine internals with issues. If say 5 builders with total of 1000+ engines they torned down and sees less than 5 that failed on street engine because of clearance issue (less than 1%), than its NOT Necessary for street driven car.... Point in which you disagreed and wanted to make my point with bit of research and numbers... And not just telling you I came up with it using my "proprietary" method of determining its not necessary..

Again, No hard feelings... seriously!

[Bryan@BNR]

Glen,

Dont sweat it buddy. Keep up the good work on the engines. I have seen a few of the ARR vids and the cars run well...

Bryan@BNR