what aftermarket apex seal would you choose?

[730RWHP12A]

what apex seal would you choose?

choices? below, and why you would choose them.. thanks

Atkins seals

ALS seals

RA super seals

Goopy seals

PTS seals

Hurley seals (not sure if Emmon is still selling them)

here are the specifics....

on a budget, poor tuner so there will be a possibility of lean conditions/ detonation during tune, cheap pre-mix, rotor housings are not the best, boosted application, race gas, 30 pounds of boost, drag racing, not daily driven, not trying to go 100,000 miles before rebuild

[RICE RACING]

I have many pictured on my site after testing more of these and selling more than anyone else in the (especially ceramics).

The hurley by far is the worst, soft and housing rape combined LOL. Seen this many times myself fist hand, never ever seen a seal chamfer wear as bad as these or rape a housing as bad in short time.

PTS are a total donkey! banana city along with housing rapage. Lost count how many people come crying to me about being coned into buying their shit, promised the world and delivered an atlas.

SCR = shit WORST GARBAGE ON EARTH, PROBABLY SOLAR SYSTEM!

Most of the fence post seals are like that, its only the RA that I have seen RAPE ROTOR HOUSINGS!.

Be prepared for lots of 'opinions', there was a RAPE thread on gayclub about ALS from one of their biggest supporters lol it got taken down :gnorsi: lets be honest all of them are shit, .

[RICE RACING]

Gayer than aids

[Rotary Evolution]

i've personally run the Goopy seals up to 13.5:1 AFR at 500whp(not saying a whole lot but most seals would have failed in this scenario), the seals did not bend or crack. it was only for a few dyno runs before i noticed the pump dying and AFRs spiking but they handled it just fine. 91 pump gas with 50/50 water AI spraying only about 500cc/min at 24psi.

i've never needed to put them through more stress than that but dozens of installed sets floating around that have not failed so far(i have never had a set warp or break or even gouge the housings is what i'm saying). they don't push selling their seals all that much so you won't hear a whole lot about them.

but take my opinion with some bias, since i am one of their resellers. if you do choose them i can get you a 25 bucks off off retail with shipping included.

i would not recommend Atkins seals in anything other than a stock turbo or n/a engine, even that is pushing it. i've had many sets break over the years even under very light detonation cycles. they are weaker than OEM at handling detonation but in the event a seal or 2 does fail the damage is minimal. if you don't mind some possible damage and love ripping engines apart i suppose they are fine, and also the cheapest option. i only use atkins seals now on n/a engines since they last the longest.

[RICE RACING]

engine pulled down for an inspection recently as it started running a bit rough. It has done less than 10,000kays and was running stihl premix at 100/1. Housings were new when it was built and so were the seals, 2mm scr.

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg325/Gooie69/housing2.jpg

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg325/Gooie69/housing1.jpg

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg325/Gooie69/housing3.jpg

[Rotary Evolution]

well, i have seen just about every seal out there cause similar wear patterns to that but not regularly, the reasons why some seals gouge/chatter while others of the same brand do not isn't quite clear.

i've even seen the harder OEM and Atkins seals cause gouging and chatter patterns on housings. sometimes it depends on air filtration, other times surface prep of the housings and other times lubrication or seal loading issues.

i haven't actually come across a Goopy seal set yet that caused excessive wear but i've only been running them for the past few years.

ceramics and carbon seals are obviously the best at preventing housing wear but they're not exactly the best for boosted/detonation situations. even the toughest ceramic to date is still just shy of the shear strength of the cast iron OEM seals. for endurance n/a applications i usually try to push ceramic, though most people don't like the price tag.

[RICE RACING]

well, i have seen just about every seal out there cause similar wear patterns to that but not regularly, the reasons why some seals gouge/chatter while others of the same brand do not isn't quite clear.

i've even seen the harder OEM and Atkins seals cause gouging and chatter patterns on housings. sometimes it depends on air filtration, other times surface prep of the housings and other times lubrication or seal loading issues.

i haven't actually come across a Goopy seal set yet that caused excessive wear but i've only been running them for the past few years.

ceramics and carbon seals are obviously the best at preventing housing wear but they're not exactly the best for boosted/detonation situations. even the toughest ceramic to date is still just shy of the shear strength of the cast iron OEM seals. for endurance n/a applications i usually try to push ceramic, though most people don't like the price tag.

^ Most workshops & individual people do not like the total destruction either :lol: :smash:
I've sold hundreds of these from both known vendors to every self professed 'name' here and many around the world, and they ALL destroy housings, plates, turbo's at the slightest hint of 'non ideal conditions' ;)

[Rotary Evolution]

ceramic is by far the most destructive. like tossing a handful of metal into the running engine, it just tears up everything.

but it's quite difficult to break them in naturally aspirated engines. or any seal aside from carbon for that matter. the seals/housings should outlast the end plates.

[WankelsRevenge]

On the subject of seals, what does anyone know about the RA seals? They rebuilt my motor and I was told it had all RA cryo seals. Should I just expect this to be on the apex seals, or can I hope they also did the whole engine with them? O and how good are they really? Its a ported N/A 6port right now, but everyone that's had anything to do with this engine has told me they were building it to boost it, Im just hesitant to put and amount of boost on the stock "high" compression rotors.

[Rotary Evolution]

there is no indestructable apex, side or corner seal. if they hold up then you will crack an iron, if you pin the engine the seals will warp or eat a side/corner seal. there is no way to build an engine to handle detonation more than in short bursts.

RA seals seem to be one of the most popular choices of "banana" seals. meaning they will warp under excessive EGTs if everything else survives.

[FC Zach]

I've run RA seals for 6 years with hard driving and excessively high RPMs (I beat the hell out of this motor). My car was nowhere near perfect at the time, I built it while in highshool with the help of a friend. It's a carbed 13b 6port and has run in both rich and lean conditions. The engine had a failure in 2010 that I didn't realize till returning home from a B3R trip, I had a blown coolant seal and destroyed bearings. With all this extra play in the motor the seals held up and made the 300 mile trip, thankfully getting me home. I took the motor apart and even with the excess play from the bearings crapping out on me the seals still looked great and the rotor housings looked ok considering what had happened.

I had already purchased new seals and a local friend of mine wanted to use my old RA seals in one of his projects, still to this day I believe that motor is still running.

I'm a fan of these seals and recommend them :icon_tup:

[PSI]

RA seals here to date. I haven't managed to bend or break any yet, but I can't say what housing wear is like until I pull down an engine that's been pushed hard.

I saw an FD engine recently that had done 5000km with Als seals and both the housings and seals still looked like new. It didn't have a heap of hp though - 330rwhp and 100:1 TTS premix. I also saw an SCR seal from an engine that had done 2000km with even less hp and what a mess - it was half worn away, more so at one end, and had a bad flat spot on the leading edge.

I'm keen to give Goopy seals a go, by all accounts they work well. It sounds like Goopy and Als are similar material.

[WankelsRevenge]

Hmm, well with everything Im hearing im leaning more and more into turboing my 6port

[Rotary Evolution]

with any FC engine if you plan on pushing over 350whp i suggest studding the engine and run one of the banana seals mentioned here.

most all of the seals work just fine which are ALS/Goopy/RA in no particular order. i only have personal experience with Goopy and it has been positive(which led me to being one of their distributors).

[RX7Elmatatan]

Super seal we use it in all our car

[dvrx7]

Will the stock springs work with the RA or should you get their "racing" springs?

[dvrx7]

While I'm at it I should ask where i can get an N/A housing and rotor? I saw Goopy does refurbishing but probably not to the extent the housing and rotor are in. Any suggestions?

[GoopyPerformance]

there is no indestructable apex, side or corner seal. if they hold up then you will crack an iron, if you pin the engine the seals will warp or eat a side/corner seal. there is no way to build an engine to handle detonation more than in short bursts.


well said Ben..

Although parts and tuning has come a long way, when you improve in one area you will have to improve in the other..

Also keep in mind when building 2MM engines to always use authentic OEM Mazda FD 93-94 Apex seal springs, side seal springs and corner seal springs. They are able to withstand higher temps for longer periods of time.
All others that i have seen will loose deflection with one or two passes down the 1/4

[730RWHP12A]

well Rice, i have a set of RA seals that look like bananas.. they didnt even make it out of my buddy's shop.. they heat cycled the motor 8 times, put it on the dyno, after the first pull,done.. low compression .. half throttle pull, stock turbos, stock boost.. strange spoke with the owner at RA and he said they are designed to do that... He is very nice tho..

[RICE RACING]

well Rice, i have a set of RA seals that look like bananas.. they didnt even make it out of my buddy's shop.. they heat cycled the motor 8 times, put it on the dyno, after the first pull,done.. low compression .. half throttle pull, stock turbos, stock boost.. strange spoke with the owner at RA and he said they are designed to do that... He is very nice tho..

All Apex seals are fucking shit! this is why rotaries failed in life and are not made by anyone or run in anything of significance, its only a battler scene full of excuses and part truths........ honestly a shittier engine you will not find ;)

No such problems with a cylinder and a piston and simple rings. :boxing_smiley:

[730RWHP12A]

Rice there is hope.. beer injection, half will be injected into the engine, the other half will be injected into the driver, additionally premix will be placed in the butt-crack of driver, not sure how it will work but i will post results with pics asap :)

as far as apex seals go, piston rings, rods, it seems a good tuner is key in the life of any internal combustion engines life..

[RICE RACING]

Rice there is hope.. beer injection, half will be injected into the engine, the other half will be injected into the driver, additionally premix will be placed in the butt-crack of driver, not sure how it will work but i will post results with pics asap :)

as far as apex seals go, piston rings, rods, it seems a good tuner is key in the life of any internal combustion engines life..

No variables, the fact never changes that rotaries are shit.

You cant concur the world when your men are made of shit, and rotaries are that, you know why Mazda went NA 3 rotor then 4 rotor in Group C don't you??? its not because they did not know how to make apex seals out of fence posts LOL......

its cause as an engineering fact it wont work in the same condition a reciprocating engine will............ its as simple as that.

[RICE RACING]

Show me a turbo 13B that can wine Pikes Peak and I will be impressed with its Apex Seal *any manufacturer* ;)

Till then its all shit in my books :)

[diabolical1]

what apex seal would you choose?

choices? below, and why you would choose them.. thanks

Atkins seals

ALS seals

RA super seals

Goopy seals

PTS seals

Hurley seals (not sure if Emmon is still selling them)

here are the specifics....

on a budget, poor tuner so there will be a possibility of lean conditions/ detonation during tune, cheap pre-mix, rotor housings are not the best, boosted application, race gas, 30 pounds of boost, drag racing, not daily driven, not trying to go 100,000 miles before rebuild

Goopy.

I have not tried them yet in any of my engines, but I've been able to talk rotaries with Jonathan and I have laid eyes on his work and the products that he sells. I have also seen some of his other customers (significant ones, not regular Joe-Schmoes like me) and it was enough to inspire enough confidence in him and his parts. I plan to build my next engine using his stuff.

[PSI]

I finally pulled down an engine running RA seals that had done some hard work. It was the temporary engine from our own car that was built with fairly average used parts (but new apex seals/springs). It must have done at least 50 passes down the 1/4mile (9.1 on pump petrol best E.T with this engine) plus 100 or more dyno pulls, some dirt drags and burnouts, and a bunch of street driving. I know it suffered some decent detonation too.

The apex seals themselves looked good and were all dead straight with fairly minimal wear. A couple were a little shorter on one end than the other, probably because the spring would would have been closer to the shallow end.

The housings themselves looked good considering the basic semi-synthetic 2 stroke we were running (and not enough of it). They have scratches as you would expect, but they are not as bad as I thought they would be and would sand out easily.

If we were running the polyol ester 2 stroke oil we run now, and at the amount we run now, then I'm sure the housings would look even better. All in all I'm happy with the RA's and see no reason to change at this point.

We run them in our current engine which makes 740rwhp on 93 pump with WI and the compression never seems to change. Even with this engine we've had some decent detonation getting to this point but somehow the seals take it in their stride. For whatever reason they don't break and don't bend. The current engine has done a season of low 9's and high 8's plus street driving, and it seems fine so we'll run it again next season without pulling it down. Hopefully we can crack the 800hp mark on pump petrol, but I'm not holding my breath.

[730RWHP12A]

Show me a turbo 13B that can wine Pikes Peak and I will be impressed with its Apex Seal *any manufacturer* ;)

Till then its all shit in my books :)

Millen won pikes peak in his awd first gen turbo rx7 , i believe...

[RICE RACING]

Millen won pikes peak in his awd first gen turbo rx7 , i believe...

What he did do is move on to a much more powerful and reliable engine that was/is much faster with 300+bhp more ............ the 3SGTE.

He tried with a Peripheral Port 13B turbo made by Racing Beat which nearly send him broke, then he in a attempt to make it more reliable went 20B, in the year he was smashed by the 205T16 Peugeot.

Sad but true the rotary turbo is a piece of shit in a real race (not drug race).

[730RWHP12A]

http://www.speedhunters.com/2012/11/retro-rally-rhys-millens-group-b-rx7/


not the fastest car he has had, but the mazda is his favorite :)

[Whizbang]

how about NA PP applications? Since I am of the camp that things mixing rotaries and turbos is like mixing oil and water.

[RICE RACING]

how about NA PP applications? Since I am of the camp that things mixing rotaries and turbos is like mixing oil and water.

I owned and daily drove one in the early 1990's for a length of 6 years as a daily driver. They are a fucking night mare, too sensitive to any exhaust system back pressure, too loud, too much fuel and POOR power in street trim.

As a racing engine they are weak in power, sad but true. On a level playing field (and even on when where they have weight breaks to the rotary favor and also no restrictors) they are still a very shit motor.

You can watch a 4 rotor NA PP being lapped like a back marker in this race, "too much fuel use" & "low in power" says it all.

qZdCVCIJaKQ&feature

That is why rotaries are not made any more.

[RICE RACING]

how about NA PP applications? Since I am of the camp that things mixing rotaries and turbos is like mixing oil and water.

Same for both really ;) Fence post bendy or shattering pottery apex seals or not, there is always a compromise or an excuse or both!@

[730RWHP12A]

any thought on these seals for N/A use?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-13B-2mm-Ceramic-Apex-Seals-with-Springs-set-of-6-/320217510248?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4a8e737168&vxp=mtr

[doghouse]

good info

[RICE RACING]

good info

Yes it is, more people should post, but not many have running cars or like to tell the truth LOL.

[ricardo.benin]

Any of you guys ever use the e&j auto works apex seals

[TitaniumTT]

Did anyone else catch that Lance is creating his own Apex Seals with IRP?

[islander]

I agree. Every seal has its own pros and cons.
Goopy does this, als does that, such and such did this!!. We know of all the horror stories. I'm not looking for anymore horror stories personally. But I do want to hear the good testimonials. I want to hear cars running lean and the motor was saved by your seals, I want to hear the compression numbers these motors are getting, also want to hear about the long term testing, track cars, street cars, drag cars. Etc.

[silverfdturbo6port]

Here goes some more water injection mumbo jumbo bullsh*t. But oh no its ok to run a 50 50 methanol blend......
INJECTING WATER WILL NOT HURT A RUNNING ENGINE !

As for seal preferences that i can afford and have had no ill effects on high hp and na applications ove the last 10years and not one reported blown motor or warped apex seals CLASSIC RA'S are my choice as of right now.
Super seals are for drag motors that get torn down on a regular basis that of course wont show any signs of wear like most of the other manufacturers out there claiming the best by using drag cars as a poor example to make them look good.

[RETed]

Those better not be PRIVATE emails being posted...

Can anyone confirm?

Addendum...
Ok, I've found out where they came from...
Although the post is out there in public, I don't think that was the intention.
(Was this this originally posted on AusRotary - which does not allow Google [or any search engine] parse their threads?)

This is a formal warning to Barry Bordes - do NOT repost text that are private in nature.
This includes PM's, emails, or even anything that was not made for public consumption but "accidently" leaked by a third party.
This is considered very bad net etiquette and frowned upon.
PLEASE REREAD THE RULES OF CONDUCT POSTED AS A STICKIE.
There is grounds to INSTANT BAN you according to those guidelines.

Thread is being cleaned of all reference to such.


-Ted

[Slides]

Yes it is, more people should post, but not many have running cars or like to tell the truth LOL.

Might get banned but you can't just leave this here Ted its asking for signature status :o16:

[RETed]

I realize that there are some very concerned observers of recent events that happened in this thread...
Since the poster of the replies deleted the majority of the comments, I just followed-up and deleted all the reference to those deleted replies.

I understand that this can make this thread somewhat disjointed - see dates of posted replies - so, even the deletions are not perfect.

Just to keep this thread coherent, any specific replies to the drama should be redirected to that Money-Can't-Buy-You-Happiness thread...

Thank you for your cooperation.


-Ted