Excellent point on the hose issue...I never even considered that.

About the filter, I didn't have my oil temp gauge wired up at the time I first started the engine up. My concern was how much hotter and how quickly it got hot compared to the rest of the engine and coolant. What I guess was going on was that there was probably air being pushed through with the oil on initial start up.

Compared to coolant, I've noticed my oil temps rise faster on a cold start. This is normal. The stock oil cooler has a thermovalve in it that allows oil to bypass the cooler when it's below a certain temperature. Also your oil filter has a pretty thin metal case, so the heat from the hot oil flowing thru it will readily transfer to your hand.

With the emissions hoses, you gotta be careful...
Anything that has oil (vapor) or gasoline vapor will make short order of regular "vacuum hose" and / or silicone vacuum hose.
In a pinch, I recommend using "carburetor fuel hose," which is cheap and easy to get from any car parts store.
At least the carb fuel hose is rated to handle petroluem liquids and vapors.
Almost any vacuum hose 6mm or 1/4" I.D. under the hood is going to have either oil "crankcase" vapors or gasoline vapors from the gas tank.

I concur that it's normal for the oil filter to get that hot.
For most humans, when temp start to edge over 100F, you tend to pull your hand away.
Pain threshold is around 120F - 130F?
I think 2nd degree burns start about that temps too.
Normal oil temps are 190F - 200F, so this is easily over the burn / pain threshold.
Coolant temps will beat oil temps to the thermostat setting, but the oil temps will tend to equalize faster throughout the engine due to 1) having a smaller heat exchanger - i.e. oil cooler, and 2) oil paths are concentrated around the hottest parts of the engine.
Once oil temps are at it's normal operating temperatures, it takes a long time for that temp to come down, especially versus coolant temps.

As for the MBC and boost sensor related issues...
I got a quick&dirty test for you, but with the engine being hurt, we might wait till after the rebuild?
You can isolate if it's a boost related issue by disconnecting the electrical connector from the boost sensor.
Try to minimize running the engine into heavy boost at any one single time, but running in and out of boost just across the "0" threshold should be safe.
If the hiccup goes away, it's a boost or boost sensor related issue.
If the hiccup is still there, look else where...


-Ted

Yeah, you two are both probably right abou the filter getting hot as quickly as it did. And being my first rebuild I'm looking for things and not knowing everything to look for...so I'm creating more questions that I need to.

I believe the car is parked where it will remain until rebuild is done. I'm probably done testing things after today. I'm getting a little crunched for time and like Ted mentioned, testing on a sick engine isn't really helping to narrow down any problems outside of the coolant seal problem. I did a compression test on the cold engine just looking for and hoping to get all even bumps. Which I did get!! Perfect world I would have warmed the engine up but that did not happen and I was really just easing my paranoia that my problems could also be related to a bad apex, corner or side seal.

Cold Numbers
Front 95-100ish
Rear 110-120ish all around

Well I believe while prepping the engine for removal I found the cause of my boost problems.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...91934872_o.jpg

It was very small when I started removing things, In the process of pulling the TMIC and getting the pic I made the tear much much worse. The $4 plumbing coupler served me well, but I suppose I should get the proper part. :suspect:

I haven't decided whether to pull the tranny with the engine or just the engine. Pulling the engine only will make removal much easier as I will not have to drain the transmission, lower the exhaust, remove heat shielding to get to transmission mount and convertible transmission brace. Come to think of it, I won't have to take the clutch hose off either.

Ted something I forgot to mention in our PM. On the initial rebuild I had replaced the clutch with an ACT street clutch. Replaced the throwout and pilot bearings at that time.

That will do it... For replacement silicone couplers & related parts, you might want to give these guys a try:

http://www.siliconeintakes.com/

Prices are very reasonable for silicone parts, and the parts I tried seem to be holding up rather well after a year of use on my daily driver. Haven't used any of their parts on the FC yet, but I purchased a couple of straight coupler pieces from them for my Protege5. The stock rubber/plastic intake pipe on that car has a bad habit of cracking over time, so rather than paying Mazda the crazy cost of another stock part, I fabbed up a replacement pipe with these couplers and some AL pipe.

My $0.02 is on pulling just the engine. If you're pulling the tranny out with it, you'll also need a bit more clear workspace in front of where the car sits to manuever the hoist & engine/tranny unit out of the car without hitting anything along the way.

Thanks for the heads up on silicone parts source. I did pull just the engine, and yes it was so much easier than pulling the tranny with the engine. Prepping for removal aside, it took maybe 15 min to pull the engine, swing the engine hoist around and drop the engine into the back of my van. Going to rebuild the engine in a warmer location than where the car is stored.

This might be mundane but the bolt from tranny to engine. The one behind the starter came out with oil on it. There wasn't a trail of oil leading down to the bolt (like from the oil filter area), and no oil around the head of the bolt. But I pulled the bolt out and it had a nice coating of oil on it.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...64693515_o.jpg

There she is, in all her glory...
http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...96529211_o.jpg

I swear it looks like oil dripped down from the oil filter / base?

Any leaks on the oil pan itself?
It could be an oil leak could've seeped upwards?


-Ted

Yes and yes, I'm using an oil pedestal sandwich for my temp and pressure senders. I did initially have problems with the sandwich leaking, which I had addressed. I also had a leak at the oil level sensor on the oil pan. I wasn't sure if the sensor that came on my JDM engine was working or not so I swapped to a known working one. I did not think to replace the oring and had a consistent but small leak from there.

I didn't not see any oil had run down the bellhousing of the transmission, but I think I know where this is leading. Oil from the pedestal leak worked its way between the rear iron and transmission?

How much should this soot bother me coming off the front exhaust port? I inspected the exhaust manifold and didn't see any cracks in that location.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...55980599_o.jpg

Here is the port with a lil bit of soot matching the soot one the opposite facing of the gasket.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...82542941_o.jpg

Yes, it's possible.
I've seen oil leaking from the oil cooler fittings at the oil cooler somehow whip back and end up coating the bottom of the trans!
You gotta remember that air flows from the front, up and over and under the engine...



http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/...ps967f3aad.jpg

Just a quick note on this pic...
Red circle shows an exhaust gas leak.
It should have a similar mark on the turbo exhaust manifold.
Gasket looks okay...
Was the turbo exhaust manifold not bolted down tight enough?
Crack?


-Ted

We saw the same thing in that pic. Sometimes I post things to confirm what I'm already thinking, but also others can learn if they run into similar situations. A lot of times car forums have people posting the really cool and extreme stuff they are doing, but don't post mundane things. The mundane things I think help people such as myself, who don't have large real life network to bounce ideas/experiences off of.

That being said, Yes, IIRC I did have problems getting the front of the exhaust manifold bolted down. On the first rebuild, after the engine had been installed I then made the untimely decision to put new exhaust gaskets on. I do remember having trouble getting the front manifold nuts tightened down correctly. But also as this pic shows, I do have cracks in the manifold. They were there when the initial rebuild happened last year, I was hoping they were not long enough to cause a leak.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...31340324_o.jpg

I have a spare S5 turbo manifold in storage, I'll get that either later tonight or tomorrow morning. I remember that the manifold wasn't in perfect shape, but that's as much as I remember.

What I don't know is what to expect from symptoms of an exhaust leak at that location. Louder exhaust, but what else?

I have heard of people welding and repairing cracks, but I've also heard that often times that the welded repair then becomes a problem down the road. It sounds like repairing those cracks are more a temporary fix than an long term solution. But the reason I'm bringing up temporary fixes is that this summer I will be taking welding classes. It is possible that this summer I will meet someone through the instructor of the class who could weld a new manifold for me. If I could learn to do the work myself that would be better, but might be a little ambitious of an expectation from an entry level welding class.

It looks like this turbo exhaust manifold is just a door stop... :(

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/...psa4d7894e.jpg

The red arrows goes to the two, obvious cracks.
Most of the time, you just worry about the cracks.
It looks like in your case, the entire area between the two cracks has shifted.
Encircled in red...
This would explain the soot marks on the gasket.

To fix this case, you'd need to first weld the cracks and then machine down the flange flat.
Unless you've got the resources to do this, it's way too much trouble.

Small exhaust leaks start out as ticking sounds...
As they get worst, they progress to a pfft...pfft...pfft and sometimes whistling sounds like old-school VW engines.


Yeah, see above.
The consensus on these turbo exhaust manifolds is that you either got a good one or you don't.
Many of them warp - due to the metal content.
Some of them warp (and crack) to the point where they are junk.
It's usually easier and cheaper just to replace.


-Ted

I've found Verocious Motorsports to be great for silicone and all the other fab stuff. Their prices are usually really good and they ship really fast too.

I bought a bunch of stuff from them and have always been pleased so maybe you'll find them useful too.

Bummer about the manifold.

Thanks for the heads up vrracing. I'll check them out.

As for the exhaust manifolds
I pulled my spare one from storage and it's no better and has cracks in just about the exact same location. I stopped in the trusted machine shop I've been using to ask about repairing the manifold. He's prognosis was not good for either manifold. It would cost me around $100 to attempt to repair one of them. His concern is that once they start heating up the manifold the cracks will extend and become unrepairable.

I haven't made much progress in getting the engine torn down. I've got a what I think is a bad rotator cuff in my right arm. It's quite miserable in that simple range of movement trying to reach across my body, behind me, over my head, or reach out for something lights up my arm like crazy. Getting the flywheel off today was about all my arm could take.

Engine is torn down. What does a failed coolant seal physically look like? I didn't find any blown out coolant walls. I didn't find any seals broken in half, but I did find two inner coolant seals shreaded quite easily. But that seemed almost normal for the inner.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...11152191_o.jpg

I have not started cleaning parts yet and snapped some pics of what I think are suspicious looking coolant seals still in the grooves.
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...24658970_o.jpg

This spot was splitting at the seam, but also at the bottom of the pic.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...55238318_o.jpg

Something bad did happen while transporting the engine after the flywheel and front bolt had been broken free. Engine came free of it's restraints and rolled in the back of the van. I'll get some pics tomorrow of my front and rear iron for opinions.

Can you take a wide angle view of the entire surface of the irons?
Sometimes you can see a discoloration in the area of the coolant leak...


-Ted

Here is my big concern. The engine was being transported after having the flywheel nut and front stack nut broken free. It came free of restraints and rolled. Torsion bearing was damaged and one of the cylindrical bearings fell into the engine. My assumption is that there will be an oil leak at that location from there being too much space between surface and oil control ring???
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...79282554_o.jpg

Here are some wider angle pics of irons.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...64932479_o.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...86186801_o.jpg
Different pic of same middle iron facing
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...91978867_o.jpg

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...19753911_o.jpg

I didn't notice this while taking the pics, but did while moving pics from smartphone to computer. Rust in the seal channel?
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...62477060_o.jpg

Are these deformations significant?
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...47924522_o.jpg

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...25786481_o.jpg

Yes.
Typically, the stock inner water jacket o-rings tend to "delam" when removed. The inner, orange stuff is silicone.
The outer white "liner" is Teflon?
The two materials don't adhere to each other too well.

One side note...
Mazda recommends putting the "seam" of the inner water jacket o-ring seal toward the intake port.
At this location, this is the area where that seal sees the least amount of stress - heat and pressure.
I noticed that you got your seams in approximately the 12 o'clock position almost dead top.


In general, you don't usually worry about them, although the one pic with the longer "cut" in it is kinda weird.
The seal has no where to go, so as long as the tear doesn't grow, the seal should stay intact.



You talking about that "smear" toward the center of the iron?
Does it pass the fingernail test?
Can you tell it's a depression by running your fingertip over it?


-Ted

Yeah, that's not a good sign...
Assuming the irons were cleaned methodically, the rust was not there upon assembly.
It's safe to say that the rust formed after the engine was put together, so coolant was getting past the seal somehow...
Not good.


I've cropped one of your pics here...

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/...ps26ad93c6.jpg

Red circle shows possible sign of coolant entering the combustion chamber.
Looking at the orientation of the iron, this would be the "top" of the combustion cycle.
Blue circle shows the coolant trying to burn inside the engine - coolant doesn't burn well so it leaves traces like this...

This would be my guess where the coolant leak came from.


-Ted

Again, like the cuts, usually not a big deal...
Seal has no where to go.
These dents are typical when using some kinda supplemental sealant with the water jacket o-ring?
Petroleum jelly?
Hylomar?



-Ted

I'll have to rewatch the dvd, but I believe Atkins dvd suggest putting them at 12 o'clock.

About the damage on the front iron. I've reposted the pic. The circled area you can catch your fingernail on. It's been almost a week since I've touched the front iron....but as I remember it you can feel a depression but can only catch your nail in the circled area. I'll reconfirm that later today.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...85714572_o.jpg

I used hylomar

I have gotten myself confused while checking my irons for warpage. I'm confused about the difference between checking for warpage and checking for step wear.

Warpage tolerance is 0.0016
Step wear tolerance is 0.003

Doesn't that mean there are areas on the combustion surface where step wear tolerance is higher/greater than warpage tolerance? I check my tolerance for warpage per the FSM at 4 points. Once I get into oil seal wear area there is an even greater tolerance(0.0008) and my 0.0015 feeler can slide under my straight edge. I'm also taking the straight edge across areas other than the 4 pts in FSM and finding some variations. Can someone help clarify.

Also does anyone know if the Pineapple Racing streaming videos are down? I used them for my previous rebuild and they were incredibly helpful. I sent them an email today but I expect I won't get a response till Monday.

Last question for this post. With that damage on the front iron on the rough, non-combustion area but then extending into oil ring area and possibly into side seal area.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...85714572_o.jpg
What will the be the result of using that iron on the engine. I'm not seeing any irons for sale and am considering using the iron?

I guess the 12 o'clock position is technically not wrong, according to the FSM...

I prefer to put the splice where the intake ports are located.
This is the coolest area in the housing.

Sorry for the bad pics, but these are pics from the 1987 and 1991 FSM's...

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/...ps81d26fa7.jpg




I don't think that area is an area where the oil control seals actually run over, but maybe someone else can confirm?

Also, do you have your oil control labeled so you know which one goes where?
This might help, but can you mic out the height of the oil control metal rings?
If that area is affecting the oil control ring, it could be abrasive enough to cause the oil control ring to wear prematurely.


-Ted

Okay, "step wear" is defined by any gouge or valley *under* the measured surface.
I believe the FSM is specific to the areas - the most critical areas are at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions about 1" from the inner water jacket groove.

"Warpage" is defined by *any* deviation - whether is be "high" or "low" measured along a surface.
Technically, any "wear" (including the above "step wear") should not factor into this warpage inspection.
Warpage is to measure how much deflection out of parallel or perpendicular a surface is...usually across a broad area.


-Ted

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying Ted.

I'm dissapointed that when I took my engine apart I did not find a smoking gun showing a blown out coolant seal and am concerned that I'll put this engine back together without identifying why/where/how the coolant seal failed.

Ted circled a pic in a previous post showing where he'd bet the seal failed. My concern is all my iron surfaces look very similar and seem to be tied to hylomar staining. Here's some pics with areas having similar staining.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...05628348_o.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...51021892_o.jpg

Unrelated to staining, look how thin the wall is at this point. It looks cast that way and doesn't at all feel like corrosion. Should I be concerned?
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...60927791_o.jpg

You can ignore the outer water jacket groove. :)
I've never seen a failure on the outside one unless we're talking severe corrosion problem or extreme overheating.
The majority of the punishment is done to the inner water jacket since it has to seal combustion!
More specifically, the area from 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock (or vice versa, depending on how you're looking at the housing) which is the area where you start the ignition cycle through the combustion cycle to the end of the exhaust cycle is most important. :)

Sometimes it's very hard to tell from just pics on where the coolant leak came from.
It's almost necessary to be there - in person - to get a good idea of what is going on.
I tried to the best job just by the pics you posted... :(

Another question...
Assumed you did torque the engine down in the specified order...
How much torque did you tighten the tension bolts down to?
What kinda torque wrench?


-Ted

You have been very helpful Ted

I figured the same thing about that thin spot, but thought it was odd that it had a thin spot.

I don't remember the specific order I torqued the through bolts down in, but I did it in a chris cross pattern. I used a beam torque wrench and did them down to FSM specs..though I don't recall what those numbers are at the moment. I get where you are going with this though and talked to a friend about it just yesterday. If they weren't torqued down correctly wouldn't I have had leaks everywhere. I didn't have any signs of coolant in oil or any outer leaks through the irons and into engine bay. BUT I did transport the assembled keg to a friends shop to use his air tools for the flywheel nut. I doubt the engine "loosened" during transportation....but is it possible?

I think the molds were just getting bad toward the end of the production that some of the irons came out like that.
I've seen a lot of them on tear-downs, and they look awfully like massive corrosion...
It's so common that I've just chalked it up to "bad" molds.
Oddly enough, I've never seen a failure in those areas.


I believe the Mazda torque spec is around 27 lb-ft?
I only use Snap On torque wrenches - click-type.
I run my rebuilds at 30 lb-ft.
It's slightly higher than stock spec, but it's not tight enough to interfere with the rotating assembly.
I know guys run them higher, but you run the risk of increasing friction.
I've seen an engine torqued down to 40 lb-ft that almost could not be rotated by hand!
I know Snap On torque wrenches are not cheap, but the ~$200 investment is a good one in this case.


-Ted

I've got a Craftsman. I doubt that the torque was off unless the wrench was faulty. I like the beam type wrenches more cause I can see with my own eyse type thing. Trusting a click in a wrench makes me nervous. I got very anal and almost OCD when checking torque on nuts and bolts. I went around the through/tension bolts several times, but don't remember what the torque was on them. I took notes and pics through the teardown and tolerance speccing, but then at the end for assembly I got more focused on getting the job done and note taking fell by the wayside.

The click type torque wrenches are very accurate as long as they are not dropped and used for the final torque. Beam are the least accurate. I have seen so many fail calibration brand new out the box.
The snap on ones are expensive but they are very good. Used them in the Navy torquing bolts and CADS on the ejection seats. Figure if they are used for that then it is more than good for a car.

I don't see myself springing for a Snap-On wrench. I've been reading up on checking beam type wrenches by hanging a weight and measuring distance from the socket end. Do some math and find out how accurate your wrench is.

I can get a Craftsman click wrench for $70...that I can justify spending if my beam type shows to be innacurate. Opinions on Craftsman torque wrenches?

If the $200 - $250 price tag for a brand new one bothers you, you can always get one used... :)
For a while, I was chasing a lot of them off of eBay.
I can usually get one for about $100 - $150 depending on condition.
If you're lucky, you can get one for under $100.
(A lot of pawn shops tend to dump them on eBay.)
You can always get them recalibrated locally through the Snap On dealer with a nominal fee.
Or, you can buy a calibration machine for like $1,000... :D

This is something that I would not skimp on.
That's just the way I view the work.
I first started out with a (brand new) Sears Craftsman torque wrench...
The nut in the handle backed out and fell apart in my hands...literally.
I went in and told them I wanted my money back.

All your mil-spec and civilian contractor torque wrenches will most likely be Snap On, although I've seen a few Proto's here and there.
You'll see them pop up on eBay - with set torque levels that cannot be adjusted.

This is something I see as an investment.
Your torque settings can make or break what you're building or servicing.
In the end, is the ~$200 that expensive?
Most of us drop at least $1,000 for a rebuild just on parts...
Specifically for the tension bolts, since we're looking at the 30 lb-ft range, you're most likely looking at a wrench that does 0 - 50 lb-ft.
(Rule of thumb is to shoot for the middle of the adjustment range.)
That covers the majority of fasteners in your FC short of the flywheel nut, front eccentric shaft bolt, wheel hubs, and maybe some of the larger suspension fasteners, so that torque wrench is not likely going to just sit on the shelf collecting dust once you're done with the rebuild (tension bolts).


-Ted

One problem with the beam-type is that parallax can be a problem.
Depending on gradiation, you could be off by as much as 5 lb-ft in some cases...

This is why I asked what #'s were you shooting for.
If you're trying to shoot for 25 lb-ft, if we account for possible parallax error, it could be as low as 20 lb-ft...
20 lb-ft is a bit too low for most rebuilders.


-Ted

IRRC I did the tension bolts to 30lbs. I was very thorough in checking them repeatedly. As you tighten them it lessens the torque on the ones tightened before the most recent. I went back through and checked them a few times.

I may do a little experiment. I may buy both a cheap Harbor Freight clicker as well as a Craftsman. I've got some spare trashed n/a irons. I may find a spot to tighten a bolt down with all 3 wrenches and see how much variance there is. Maybe just do a nut on an exhaust stud?

Oh the one thing I did was stop at the machine shop I use. I showed him my front iron and he has the equipment to lap my irons if I want it done. He's confident he can lap as little as 0.001 if that's what I want.

Now I need to research prepping them for lapping and re-read the pros and cons of lapping

Very good point...
I'll normally do a minimum of 4 rounds of tightening the tension bolts.
1st @ 10 lb-ft
2nd @ 20 lb-ft
3rd @ 30 lb-ft
The above is done with the Mazda recommended torque pattern in the FSM.
I'll do one last torque down set at the same 30 lb-ft final but just go around in a clockwise pattern - that's #4.


Good idea but stay away from the exhaust fasteners.
Most dedicated exhaust fasteners have special (thread) profiles to keep them snug - usually the female or nut side of things.
Torquing and retorquing might not be consistent.
I'll try and pick something else?


-Ted

Only thing you gotta worry about is the eccentric shaft play and possibly adjusting the spacer in the front assembly.
Mazda has the specs for this in the FSM.


-Ted