Plain Jane OEM nothing to see here rebuild
 

I'm bored and new to RCC so I figured I'd post up pics of where my car is...let everyone get to know me, what I'm doing...etc etc.

History on the car, it's a JDM 13B swapped 89 vert. I daily drove the engine with no rebuild for something like 3 years. I had put the typical mods on the car

13B turbo and tranny
-engine supplied by Atkins/swap done by AIM Tuning
N370 ECU and modified N/A harness
S4 differential
RB REV TII full exhaust
FCD
Cosmo MAF
FD fuel pump
550/800 primary/secondary injectors
FD alt
airpump removed
Tokico blues and Tein springs
and a pretty nice upper-end but lowkey stereo system

Mine is the one in the background
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._7380873_n.jpg

I was running with no aftermarket control (boost, fuel, etc), but was running rich and rarely romped on the gas. I had been waiting for Rtek S5 TII chips to come out of beta. BUT detonated the engine and blew the front housing.

This is my first rebuild of any kind, so at least so far I'm keeping the rebuild OEM. Not doing any porting or other modifications. Though if I found some used FD stationary gears I'd do that and modify the e-shaft oil jets. I need to replace my stat gear bearings, so if I found some used FD gears in good shape I'd consider that modification

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...2_463847_n.jpg

Apex seal corner broke on front rotor
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...59_18507_n.jpg

It spun around a couple of times, took out the housing and rotor
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._7909889_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._5277302_n.jpg

Had a hard time getting pics of apex groove that got damaged
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._2380890_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._5515246_n.jpg

IIRC the bad apex seal groove was still within FSM specs for overall clearance. BUT it varied by like .002 or .003 from the good side to the damaged side. I was afraid that much difference from one end to the other would cause problems so the rotor was replaced.

Cool pic I got while snapping pics of the teardown and cleanup

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._6681630_n.jpg

Front Stat gear
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._7803560_n.jpg

Rear Stat gear
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...1_333458_n.jpg

Something to think about...

The front FD3S stat gear is machined differently than the FC3S stat gears.
You might need to change out all the "front guts" in the oil cover to FD3S parts - thrust bearing plates x2, Torrington bearings x2, spacer.


-Ted

^thanks for the heads up Ted, from what I had read so far I thought I could use just the gears and didn't need any other modifications other than extending the e-shaft jet grooves.

This is why I created the thread, in case I miss something. I'll be sure to reread the info I had found before doing anything. If there is any doubt I'll keep the stat gears I already have. I'm not building a high rev, high output engine so I really don't need the hardened stat gears.

One question, are the Cosmo 13B-RE gears a direct swap? I'm still researching that one, but had been told they are hardened but a direct swap...but they also do NOT have the better bearings that the FD and RX-8 have.

Just to complete the conversation for anyone who is searching for related info. I had read conflicting info about using RX8 gears. Some said they are a direct swap and other said you need to shave off like .001 on 13B e-shaft to accommodate the gear.

Another updated

Before removing the engine I had random smoking exhaust, but couldn't find the source. I first noticed while looking for a hose leaking coolant. I had replaced my water pump and had a coolant leak that seemed to only leak while the car was running and hot. I drove the car around the block to heat it up and while still running I jacked up the front. Found it was a clamp I hadn't tightened down enough so it only leaked when it got hot.

Point of that story is that while the car was running and jacked up it created a smoke screen. In general it had a smokey exhaust that I only noticed when looking at the tailpipes. But from that day on it would occasionally smoke screen while driving.

Turns out my turbo had thrust play in it. I measured by pressing the shaft as far away as possible with a dial indicator on the shaft. Then pushed it all the way the opposite way so I'd get a reading of the full play. It was like .001-.002 IIRC

That has been replaced with a S5 that has no play.

I've gotten bored while waiting for the rebuild to come together so I painted. I wanted something I hadn't seen done before so I went with black and copper

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._7232413_n.jpg
The rear housing in the pic is the bad housing that will be replaced. I pushed everything together to get a better idea how it would look and if I liked it

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._3809455_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._2079867_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._7092645_n.jpg

I'm still not sure if I'll keep that paint or not. It might be too different. I also may have the intakes powder coated rather than rattle can painted.

I may repaint the irons and front cover silver or aluminum. And have also considered going full fanboy and making the intakes white with a rising sun painted over them. Who knows might even airbrush some artsy BS on there.

I can't confirm on the Cosmo stat gears... :(

The Cosmo (20B only?) runs a 3-window bearing on the stat gears.
The 3 windows are slotted.
Mazda Comp (now Mazdaspeed) used to sell them as "Mazda competition bearings" back in the day.
The FD3S 13B-REW runs a 9-window bearing - 9 drilled holes throughout the stat gear bearing.
It's arguable whether which is better, but the 13B-REW ones are the newest design and therefore arguably better.


Sorry, I can't confirm either.
I don't mess with RX-8 stuff.
For me, the RX-8 wasn't turbo'd so why try and use "NA" parts in our turbo'd application?


-Ted

^Thanks again for the feedback

I saw pics of the 13B RE gears and they look the exact same as 13B, no difference in the bearing either. From what I was told the only difference is the gear is hardened.

I doubt I'll change the stat gears or anything else internal. OEM was serving me well enough. I was happy with external mods and 12psi boost. I don't want to do anything on the engine thats irreversible and will affect driveability and reliability. I want the engine to be able to daily drive if needed, pass e'check if needed.

I have done the exact same thing with a vert... jspecc TII, na harness, 550,750s... and I got the Rtek 2.0 just recently... for a basically stock setup it works great by helping fine tune things, monitor stock sensors, and gets rid of the need for a FCD. if getting a bigger turbo I would get a little nervous about not having a more powerful standalone though as you can't boost over 14 and I'd like the ability to use faster reacting sensors and remove the MAF.

It does do some pretty cool things though... fyi I have no emissions, hence the non CEL codes. but it datalogs fairly decent and accepts my wideband signal.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_DOIP7bvsJCI/TK...0/100_0389.JPG

Pulled from Mazdatrix who actually recommend the Renesis stationary gears. They are already hardend.
"If using the RX8 rear gear in an earlier 13b engine, you must add sealant where the rear gear o-ring WOULD be. There is no groove to hold the o-ring because the Renesis engine mounts the o-ring in the side housing rather than on the gear. We recommend using Hylomar, but a THIN layer of silicone sealant will also suffice."
The 3 window bearing IMO opinion is just as good as the REW multi window.

I'm going with a 1.7, once the car is back on the road and I'm not paying the bills for the rebuild I'll start thinking about sending my old turbo to BNR and other upgrades. Though most of my modifications I want are reliability and longevity mods. I'm eyeballing Sohn's MOP mod ATM
http://rotaryaviation.com/oil_injector_pump_adaptors.htm


I'm curious which pins you swapped on the N/A harness, not the VDI pin at the ECU, but IIRC there are two pins that need swapped further up the harness on the two plugs that attach to the dash harness. I've got two spare N/A harnesses and compared them to my modified harness...I can't find any wires different.

Thanks Dad, I remember having read that but those thoughts fell on the backburner. Thanks for bringing that up. I believe it was on Nopistons I read people using RX8 gears.

I went with the 1.7 at first, and it was fine, but I wanted a little more control and its only $350 to upgrade. I've been able to add fuel and (subtract fuel for idle) and it idles and runs great. turnaround is very fast. My next upgrade is a BNR stg1 (mainly for the ported wastegate). a pull from low rpm in 4th creeps to 14psi, which is where the map on the stock ecu stops. In the stage2, I actually have the injectors go almost full open if it sees 14psi.

I didn't change any pins anywhere... though I'm not running a knock sensor or boost control solenoid. All the others match up to their respective turbo pins.

I'm not running a knock sensor either and will be loosing the boost solenoid.

I might actually use them on my next build. It was still fresh in my mind. LOL

You call yourself the Newbie, but you have done more than most people on this forum.

Congrats to you.

That is a nice ride / project.

I'm curious, did you come across the same info about needing to shave the 13B eccentric shaft to use with RX8 gears?

Thanks man, much appreciated. I've been around rotaries for some time. My father bought an FB new when I was barely young enough to remember. From the early 80s on my father and I have owned 5 RX's between us. Four of those 5 have been verts.

This is my first rebuild so I'm trying to be as thorough as possible on the whole thing. I have a disturbing photo gallery of the engine removal and teardown. I bagged and tagged every nut and bolt. I measured step wear, warping and such on the irons.

What I need to decide is what direction the body of the car is going to go. I need to decide whether to buy my father's black vert and put my drivetrain in it or keep my red vert. I'm a softy for black verts and it's kind of a toss up over which work is most worth the effort. Swapping rear subframes so my LSD will be on the black vert...as well as my stereo system, alarm, etc...or keep the red vert and eventaully painting it black.

Quick update...the rebuild is moving forward. I want to get as much done as possible before cold weather hits.

I bought a replacement housing, it's on it's way to me. Low mile JDM housing that from the pics look to be in as good shape as my good housing.

Now I have to decide on RA seals or Atkins. I've got an overview of all the available seals that covers all the major suppliers. I'd love to hear feedback from people using RA, Atkins or even Goopy. Even better advice would be from people who used the seals then toredown the engine.

My concern with RA is about chatter marks and the reputation I've heard from them wearing the housings. Has anyone used them and torn down the engine they were in?

Another update

The housing I bought was junk so I'm working out a refund. The seller is working with me, but I'm more than a little pissed that his description was not close to reality. What really worries me is that this thing would be put up for sale and that someone might use it.

I might have a deal in the works for a housing from Japan. The pics look like it's in as good of shape as my good housing.

Now that I have more down time waiting I"m thinking of repainting my irons. While the black duracell theme was kinda fun at first I can see it growing on me...in a bad way. I'm thinking of simply doing an aluminum, I brought home some VHT "Titanium Blue Silver" but I may do simple aluminum. At least with aluminum when it gets chipped and starts flaking it won't show up as much.

One question about repainting. Can I simply cover the clear coat with self-etching primer or should I rough up the paint surface before? For repainting I'm going to do like the first color. I'll prime, paint and clear coat.

I'll get some pics of the good internal engine parts soon.

Got my answer about self-etching primer from a friend who does body work. etching primer is designed to bond to bare metal, not paint. Guess I have to repaint the hard way...

Here is my good housing
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...7_248950_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._2319142_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._4374232_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...0_811549_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._5283132_n.jpg

Question about my flywheel...will resurfacing my flywheel remove that? How much of an issue is that going to be?
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._8252693_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._6322551_n.jpg

I bought this rotor and after cleaning it found this...at first I didn't notice it. Can I use this rotor? What about flipping it around for the other housing so that the momentum of the engine will always be pushing the seal away from that damaged area?


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._6691231_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...4_577153_n.jpg

This is my other rotor, the one I damaged when I detonated...it almost seems to be in better shape than the one I bought
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._4587655_n.jpg

[QUOTE=JustJeff;131896]Question about my flywheel...will resurfacing my flywheel remove that? How much of an issue is that going to be?
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._8252693_n.jpg

Talked to a machine shop, it's not ideal obviously but the crack is only on the surface. I'll probably be using it...after resurfacing, unless I find a good deal on a flywheel.

So I decided to repaint my front cover. Was originally going to scuff up the paint some, reprime, paint, clearcoat. Got annoyed with all the nooks and crannies I was having a hard time reaching. So I bought some airplane paint remover and have spent the last week trying to get the gook out of nooks and crannies. Never again will I do that!!

I've officially given up and will be taking it to get it sandblasted. Wish I had simply stuck to scuffing up the paint. I doubt missing the nooks and crannies would have mattered. But the paint partially pulled off the metal will cause problems.

Update!!

Housing arrived today from Jland. Thank you to 87GTR from 7club for hooking me up. His price was VERY reasonable. I got a S5 housing that is simply in gorgeous shape. I also bought an InfiniIV strut bar from him. And as a bonus perk, he tossed in some snacks from Japan!!

I'll get it cleaned up and post some pics in the next couple days.

Those rotors are still very much usable. If you guage the Clearance between the apex seal slot and apex and would like it tighter we offer a oversize apex seals. Its still categorized as a 2MM seal but .003 thicker to make up for high millage slop or damaged rotor edges.
http://www.goopyperformance.com/
http://wljphotography.com/index.html

I sent it back to the seller, he inspected it and is sending me another. It's a moot point now, but I appreciate the advice.

Replacement rotor should be here in a few days. Replacement housing is already here. I've got it cleaned up and will slap some paint on it tonight or tomorrow. Matter of fact I'll post some pics of the housing.

I couldn't be happier with this housing. Bought it from 87GTR over on 7club. Considering the shape of the chrome he should have asked for more. But kudos for him for not raping the community for good used JDM parts. He is listing quite a few parts and always seems to keep his prices reasonable.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._8104998_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._2182263_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._2830533_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._2051405_n.jpg

Housing does have a couple dings on it. I'm assuming I can file or grind those down without needing to get it machined?


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._8344854_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._7212513_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._7213348_n.jpg

Yep, got a lot of those when buying used housings from previous owners dropping them. :(
Just make sure the bottom (to oil pan) and sides (to irons) surfaces are flat enough so sealant can do it's job.


-Ted

Got the dremel out last night and cleaned up the dents and dings. I also cleaned the housing to iron contact surfaces and the housing to oil pan surfaces. Used some 400 grit paper with a sanding block so all the surfaces would be sanded evenly. Did the same thing with my front cover surfaces.

I also decided to polish the logos on both housings. I've never polished before and want some practice. I'm planning to polish the lips on 2 sets of vert rims. Hell if it goes well enough I may even polish my intakes??? I doubt I"ll want to put the work into all that...but you never know.

Polishing is fun, but time consuming.

Looking good so far!

I tried polishing my UIM myself...
Oh boy, BIG mistake!
It was a royal PITA!

If you can find as shop that does this professionally, I'd recommending just paying them to do it.
Your time is worth more than wasting your time polishing these things. :P


-Ted

Yeah I've read its quite horrible and time consuming. I doubt I'll be doing it for many reasons. The other is that it's kinda like making a clean spot in the mud.... everything else will look like shit in comparison. IMHO I think polish should wait till it's the last addition to a fully dressed engine bay.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._7445785_n.jpg

Because it's too damn cold out to do anything in the garage!!! I'm doing all the work in a 3 car garage but don't own a heater that will heat that much space. Everytime I have enough time to myself to do more work, it's a damn winter storm warning.

I did receive a replacement rotor and it is dirty as fuck. I believe the seller coats them in oil but doesn't do ANY carbon build up cleaning. I know it's a B weight but don't know if it's S5 turbo or FD. I asked him for FD or S5 turbo, but he was not kind enough to inform me which he sent. Once it's clean I'll weigh it and compare to my C weight..make sure the two will balance.

I've also pieced together an ACT HD street disc kit. Bought a disc that had been mounted but not used. From a different seller I bought a new HD 4 puck kit minus the puck disc. Disc arrived today. PP and bearings won't be for some time.

Matter of fact I offered to try and sell the 4 puck sprung disc for the seller....if anyone is interested.

Did you ever try using a little propane radiant heater? I have a 14,000 BTU heater that does a very good job of keeping the engine bay warm, while only costing about $5.00 per evening of use (about $1.00/hour).

I do understand your pain.

I have no excuse, as I have an insulated and heated garage, but it costs too much to heat the whole thing, so I use the little propane heater (it costs about $8/hour to heat the shop).