Turbo on RX-8
 

I figure we have a discussion about this....

Far as I know, I have no intention of putting turbo on the 8... But who knows... Maybe some people have put one on and made decent power.. But to me, I don't think its worth it.

I just read somewhere that someone dropped 13k to get a turbo put on their 8 by Mazsport... All I can say is, I rather spend 13K on another FD than to spend it on some turbo charger to make mid 300 HP... That kind of HP on high compression engine only means trouble in my mind... And how to they control it?? Who tunes it and how?? What kind of injectors and how do they control it??

I even read mazsport wanting to upgrade ignition system and such for what... mid 300 HP??? I don't know.. maybe because I been an 7 owner, I'm bit confused why people are spending insane money and not just put 13B-REW??? stock twins with stock ignition will make 320HP?? Iam I missing something here?? Why are so many 8 owners wanting to run turbo on fake peripherial port engines (non traditional)??? For what.. Maybe 100 HP?? Am I out of touch on whats going on with the 8?? Is there a reliable turbo out there??

Someone keep me updated!

Didn't WE3RX-7(Spelling?) have a Turbo 8 at one point?

12k on a turbo? Not to sure about that, Mazsport has a kit that is $5500 and is supposed to be good for 300, but is capable up to 350-375 with injectors and coils. There is also a kit from Esmeril Racing, includes injectors. Greddy also has a kit that is essentially a bolt on for about 3500. It is a small turbo but 270-280 is what some people are getting out of the box with no major tuning other than the int-x.

Far as I know, most of these require some sort of piggyback system to control. I've heard assessport you could get maps.. but in some ways, each set up will be slightly different and external environment will cause change of map.. So, I'm not sure if its well worked out system or not.. Of course I haven't driven one.. But I have seen one with a turbo couple of years ago.. but that car ran like ass.

Also, why coil upgrade?? RX8 coils are used by Le Mans 3 rotors making more HP NA at higher RPM?? I can't imagine stock coils are that bad that you need upgrading for 350RWHP?? Stock FD coils will handle over 400 with out any issues.. Some run over 500!

But most importantly, its the design of the engine that gets me... It lost so much exhaust pulse before it hit the turbo.. I'm guessing running anything large would be very laggy.....

For 5000+ you could get a new rebuilt 13B-REW and stock 99 280HP twins that will make easy 320-350 RWHP.... and have money for a PFC.. Turbos will be very responsive and proven by 3rd gen owners that it will last!

The intercepter-X is a popular piggyback for alot of people. I have not looked in to it much but I think it is programable with the software yourself rather than having to send off for new maps like assessport.

I've actually heard more bad about the Greddy turbo kit than good, enough that I don't want to touch it plus it is a smaller turbo and I think if you try running more than 5 psi or so you end up with some issues so it seems to be very limited for the money.

Apparently people have had a lot of problems with the 8's coils. I don't know for sure if this was just on early models and was later fixed or if it is still an issue with some people. Basic of it was that the coils were weak and the cause of some ignition breakup, weak spark, etc. That was why mazsport produced their setup.

One thing to remember about mazsport is they are insanly expensive on just about everything. I don't have any of their stuff, I've heard good things about them so not knocking their products but they are high high.

Personally I think it is a waste of money to mess with a turbo on the 8's engine. Doesn't really matter what setup you try to run the exhaust ports are still going to limit how effective its going to be. I guess you could seal up the stock ports and open up the two ports like the 13B-REW and you would have more gain but then might as well just put a 13B-REW, would probabley be cheaper in the long run. The money is an issue. You can buy a complete kit for the 7 from a good shop like A-Spec that will produce, when tuned, 5-600hp for the same money you will spend on the 8 for a possible 100hp gain if that.

What we need is a thread and some research on the 8's sensor system and electrical and options there for standalones or piggybacks because if I were going to try and dump the money in the 8 for a turbo system to produce any kind of worthwhile gains then I'd be dropping a 20b in it first. For the same price or close to it, you could run a NA 20B and probabley see better gains than a turbo'd 8 engine.

Anyone know of anyone that has does a 13B-REW swap?

I thought the 13B-RE (Cosmo) is becoming a popular option since it is easier to mount than the REW. Maybe not, but I swear I heard someone say that at DGRR this year.

I'm not sure DJ, haven't looked into it. In my mind if I'm going to get into an engine swap the 20B is the only option I would entertain. Right now I'm just driving the piss out of the car while its all under warranty. :smilielol5:

12k is insane! I know BHR/MazdaManiac have developed a kit which uses most of the GReddy kit for 7k and it's putting down 370whp at 7psi.

All I know is that speedforceracing has the best turbo out there for the rx8 it does 326hp and around 240ftlbs of torque. All of this is done with a very rich mixture and at 9psi. this turbo has also been on an 04 and the car has had the turbo on it for 60,000 miles and no major problems. there is no piggy back system with this it is a complete rewire which maybe why it has lasted so long it is around the 7,300 dollar mark but is way better than anything that mazspeed is making.

what do you mean complete rewire? you still have to have an ecu with some kind of tune on it. I'd be interested in any more info you can provide.

Jeremy, it says the system uses a Powermod EMS... Not sure what that means but....

it in no way uses the stock ecu. where some piggy back systems use some of the lower rpm range this ecu that they have uses nothing that is stock on the car. go here and check it out call them if you want they are really cool http://www.speedforceracing.com/prod...x8turbokit.php

Powermod EMS still uses the stock ecu.

http://www.dnamotorsport.com/PowerMod/PowerMod.html

discription mentions how it won't lose tune if you flash your ecu and how it intercepts from the ecu then sends data based on its tune to the engine.

Sounds interesting though.

LOL!

Its so funny!! Please don't get in the hype of things... BBullet8.. I think I had this conversation with you regarding to this.. Trust me, its not worth it...

First, look at the dyno chart..
http://www.speedforceracing.com/imag...it/rx8_1_6.jpg
Their description states, "fire-breathing turbocharged 326WHP Rotary that screams to 10,000 rpms with 9 psi of intercooled boost."
They didn't even get close to 10K.. Why not?? Trust me, 10K, high compression, turbo charged engine, what 6 x 550cc injectors... Hmm.. all I can say is, I wouldn't drive that thing..

ECU:
Its a piggy back!!! Just like the back in the day Purple box by PFS for FDs. These are junk in my mind... except you could control timing (I don't think you could with PFS purple motor eaters).... But I don't think it does split and any compensation. JUNK!!!

Again, Why spend 7K to have something that you either have to have multiple maps or super conservative map to make measly 320HP. Also, by looks of it, its not coming on until 4+K RPM... Again, why not REW, twin turbo, fully programable ECU, and make 320 seq. turbo HP...

Here is a dyno map of rew seq at 19lbs
http://www.dragtimes.com/images_dyno...-RX-7-Dyno.jpg

Ok...

I looked at the Speedforceracing turbo again... Now look at this..

http://www.speedforceracing.com/imag...it/rx8_2_4.jpg

Hmm.. Can anyone else see the problem with this manifold?? Personally, I think its JUNK:)

And this statement makes so much sense..
Sounds like they are building a Honda Civic..

Why you ask?? Well, first of all, intake restriction is more important than temperature. I rather have zero 90 degree bends than try to suck in air from the front of the car...

Second, this is why you have IC:)

Third, this kit comes with pre programed map. I'm sure its tuned for conservative not peak HP (which I'll be scared to run or turn the boost above 9lbs). And second, 6 x 550s, top fed injectors.. well, I just don't quite trust running them 100% or close to that with this set up..

The runners out of the manifold look like ass (and different sizes) and they slam straight into the main runner. Looks like an awful design to me, and I am no expert.

so, can we chuck it into the huge garbage bin along with the supercharger for the NA FC?

I've been following your thread for a while and it looks pointless. RE-Amemiya did a turbo 8 and sells it as a Greddy kit (if it's even on sale) and they put out lame numbers on it and it still looked slow. Why would you want to turbo an 8 anyways?

I would almost go LSx swap before turbo'ing the stock 8 engine.

me-->:beatdeadhorse5:
you-------^

Me.....Gives no shat what u think :D

:lol: we both know that's a lie but I do agree on modding the NA renesis. It's just like modding an NA. Take it as far as you can without wasting too much money on useless crap.

Intake, exhaust, fuel, timing and reliability mods.

Renesis in stock form in a FB or FC would be pretty sweet, but in a FE, just needs more pep. But still, even the 13BT> Renesis from a tuning standpoint.

well regardless of what you all think I will turbo my car with that turbo.

Exactly!!

Lets look at the design again..
http://www.speedforceracing.com/imag...it/rx8_2_4.jpg

Just HORRIBLE manifold.. 5 turns before it hits the turbo (and how long it is before turbo) and GOD, those runners from the engine... GEEZ!! Its like its designed by some idiot who knows NOTHING about turbo... At least Mazsport's manifold looks reasonable..

Then the after turbo.. Another 5 turn before midpipe..

By the way, to put things in perspective... I just looked at what used 2004 rx8 trade in is and its now sub 10K... So, this turbo is 70% of what used 04 might be:)

it's your money. :lol:

Seriously, does anyone know how much Brian Hinson's kit is going to cost for a LSx? Seems like it would be a better investment than 7k to boost a N/A motor and get only a little over 300hp :)

I've talked to Hinson and he was trying to get LSx into an 8. But I don't think he has done it yet...

Cost, it will be 7-12k, pending motor.

But the problem I might see is how the motor will sit (renesis sits very low) and the LSx ems will work with rx8s ems which controls abs, traction, etc..

But at the end, LSx 8 vs older Z06, you aren't getting much benefit... FD vs. older Z06, at least you have the weight advantage, but not with the 8.. I guess if you want to be cool with V8 under instead, I guess i could see that;) But I would rather just go out and buy an Z06 instead the headache of conversion... Few FD V8 owners have done that after their conversion... go out and buy the original that came with the LSx engine..

It is your money... But I'm trying to help you see why it will be waste of your money...

That manifold is JUNK!!! Go look at other turbo manifolds... Others have much better design!!

If I were to run the turbo on renesis (I will never do as I think its waste of money) I would get either greddy manifold or mazsport, get a nice small ball bearing turbo, and get that powermod ems or other piggy back that will let you datalog and tune yourself. The whole cold air intake BS with 2-3 90degree bend is BS. Just put a filter or screen on your turbo. IC is important when you get into high boost.. but you are not going to make more than 10lbs with out going into changing your fuel system.

I mean, if I were to go do all this, I would just put a REW with stock twins (99 280s)! Thats what Mazda should of done fromt he beginning. with 280 99 twins, you'll get great response with max turbo potential of about 380RWHP (16-18lbs) and could run it reliably.

Guys,

MazdaManiac here in Phoenix has probably the best kit on the market for making power (Greddy Kit with upgraded turbo). He also is an expert on the Cobb Access port, which is quickly becoming the tool of choice for unlocking the potential of the stock Mazda EMS.

Greddy kits are RE-Amemiya kits renamed for the U.S. MArket aren't they?

Hope He will get on and describe more about this Cobb Access thing....

I think there are probabley plenty of places that offer a "nice" kit. I think the main point of Phil's thread though was does the cost of these "nice" kits compared to the relativly small gains justify turboing the 8's engine or would it be better money spent to do some sort of swap.

Thanks Tim. You are too kind.

No. Amemiya re-badged the GReddy kit for his A/T application. Repriced it accordingly as well!
The GReddy kit fits all RX-8 applications without retrofit, so Im' not sure what the JDM response was to the Amemiya offering.

I'll jump in your thread about that.

Its interesting to me, coming here for the first time, how insulated the markets can get.
Some of the discussion in this thread is straight out of RX-8Club, circa 2005!

You can read about my GReddy upgrade on my site (link is in my SIG - click on Satan's Hairdryer)

As far as output from the various offerings (build quality aside), you can use these graphics for comparison:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/misc/rx8club_hp.jpg

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/misc/rx8club_tq.jpg

WOW! Mazsport one is laggy!!

MM version looks the best so far;)

what I think is that there are enough people on this site that are smart enough and know enough people to build a kit that will be most efficient and fairly cheap. it just seems to me that we all complain about something yet we do nothing. Phil I know that you have done a lot with the 7s is there anything that you have learned from those that we could apply to the 8 and make it awesome.

Air = Power.
That is pretty much all there is to it.
Folks will go on about "lag" (which it usually isn't) and "boost" (which is a symptom, not an effect) and sometimes "flow" will be mentioned in the same breath as "restriction" or "loss", which isn't strictly possible.
You move air mass through an engine. It makes power. That is all there is to it.
You need to select the proper device for the job and then give it a place to live and breathe.
The problem is, superstition, tradition and secrecy abound in all levels of this hobby/industry - mostly fostered by a fear of being wrong or being "found out". Often, its just plain sloth.

For the most part, if someone claims to "know the secret" but won't talk about it, its because they don't "know the secret". Mainly, because there isn't one.

I tend to go the other way. When I've figured something out, I lay it all out there. I've got nothing to protect. Those that already know how to do this stuff already know what I know.
Those that don't, won't learn a damn thing to save their life, so who cares what they see.

The only good reason to hold your cards close is to protect your mental health.
I keep most of my "tuning secrets" to myself just because I don't want to answer the million questions from people that are striving to misapply my data. If you know this stuff, there is nothing I can say to improve your hand.

I've been on vacation so sorry for the delay in this post.

Yep - I had an '04 Turbo 8. It was the first greddy kit produced and came with the shitty e-manage. The car NEVER drove right with the "bolt-on" kit from Greddy. Once the interceptor-x became available, the e-manage was quickly ditched for it. I had used microtech before on other 7s, so the interceptor-x was a much more comfortable area to play in.

I ran the car up 8.5psi to 7K RPM at which time the stock GReddy wastegate configuration flipped out and would fluctuate from 3psi to 7psi every 500rpm or so.

The car never made over 300whp, but did drive very smooth, full boost at 2200rpm and was very "useable".

I'll answer any technical detail you might want - but the short and sweet is my current 8 will stay NA. Turbo Renesis' just arent worth it.