20B N/A build thread -- 3rd rotors a charm
 

Sup guys..

Car has been down for almost 2 years..Alot of it was because I took it apart before I went to school, then getting lazy, and on top of that I like to buy and sell crap.

Anyways..

Recently picked up a 20b shortblock. It is a early number series with less than 30,000KM. When I got the engine is was dirty but the inside looked really clean. Compression also seemed like it was there so that is a plus.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...rlies7/20b.jpg

I am doing this build cause I love the simple look of the NA 20b and the SOUND!!!!!

The engine was sent out to Glen Weaver over at Arizona Rotary Rockets for a complete build. Glen does some great port work and has shown that he is one of the top engine builders in the country. Check out his site at www.azrotaryrockets.com

The engine is getting the following done:
LARGE streetport with some more special touches. Going to be extremely aggressive
Dynamic balancing to 9500 RPM's
Re-ground irons
All the rotor housings and irons are shot blasted and throughly cleaned from previous use
All new OEM seals
S5 NA rotors -- 9.7 compression ratios
New bearings
Pretty much the engine is going to be like new when I get it back.

For mounting I will be retaining the stock subframe and the engine will be about a inch higher than the stock 13b. I dont know what the new drive line angle will be but I will figure it out if anyone cares. It has been done before by several shops so I am not concerned about the change.

I will be ditching the AC, Power steering, and ABS to clean everything up. Hopefully I plan on relocating all fuse boxes in the engine bay, and removing the stock fan relays because I can run everything off of the ECU.

Exhaust

I will be making my own equal length exhaust manifold. 2 inch primaries into a burns stainless SS merge collector. The outlet will be 3.5 inches and will carry out to the back of the car. I plan on only running only one Magnaflow race muffler, but I will make the exhaust so I can put another muffler section in if it is too loud. I dont think I loud 20b will sound bad though

Intake

This is the tricky part of the entire build -- Plan is to fully machine barrel type ITB's. I have the solid model done and I will upload a .jpg image later tonight. Design was done by my cousin, but it might be changed up to my liking. They will work with a GM D-shaft TPS and roll on ball bearings. Everything will be sealed with orings to ensure no leaks. Each throttle body is 60mm to feed the LARGE intake ports.

Concept desgin

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...mfirstmain.jpg

Fuel

Fuel will be done by CJ motorsports, Brandon (oorx7) will be making my fuel rails and setting up my lines etc. This wont be his typical fuel setup because I will be using a ITB setup so the secondary rail will be different. I will be using a turbosmart fuel pressure regulator, only cause I have one lying around . 6 Evo 8/9 injectors will be used. I believe they are 560cc and are low impedence.

Cooling

Probably one of the most important parts behind a rotary is the cooling system..Well I plan on making this simple and I plan on doing that with a electric water pump. Recently picked up a Meizere 55 GPM pump and a Meizere block adapter. I plan on ditching my old fluidyne radiator and getting something a little thicker. Something with more volume and better flow.

Anyone have any ideas?

Oil coolers will just be stock R1 dual oil coolers.

Engine management

Tec3r is the choice for this. Found it to be a great EMS and with much reading on other fourms seems to be user friendly. It will be able to control my EWP and fan, has many aux inputs and has great ignition technology. I will also be using there 60 tooth trigger wheel and ignition system.

Tuning!!!

Tuning will be done by a local rotorhead that is highly qualifed in my book. Has been tuning my car for years and always with great success.

Plan is to hit 400whp with the ITB setup.

Ill add whenever I get some more info..Hopefully it will be all good information because the next info I get will be Glen with the condition of my engine.

Please feel free to chime in and give some ideas.

ballin!!

Hey, our builds seem to have a lot of similarities. We were going to go with some custom barrel type ITBs but Logan couldn't get them the way he wanted. You know, you have to chose your battles. I think there was a problem getting them to seal up properly. I bet someday he will get them built the way he wants. Just not by the time my ride is done. Anyway, we have decided to go with ITBs off the shelf. He hasn't made a final recommendation yet on make and model of ITBs.

I am using the TEC3R as well.

It looks like an awesome build plan.

Good luck and keep us posted....

Christopher

I like Jenvey for throttle bodies, look into those.

Charlie

So, you guys like Tec3Rs? Any advantages over new Haltec or any other ECUs??

Sorry, I don't have any particulars on the reason to use the Tec3R. Main reason because that is the ECU my tuner is most comfortable with. Plus I got a great deal on a new one. I saved about $900.00 buying mine off of a member on the other forum. Maybe Logan can chime in with his reasons...

They look very nice with a great variety... Ugh, pounds to dollar rate is still pretty ugly. There are two distributors in US. Probably won't do much for the exchange rate but it is more convenient.

I will see if Logan is familiar with these.

Small update
 

Got a call from Glen today and the rotor housings are useable but not ideal for what im looking for. The housings have significant edge wear and were badly corroded sicne the engine was sitting so long.

The rotors are out getting machined and I should have some pictures of the parts next week.

If anyone knows of any good LOW mileage rotor housings let me know. Doesnt need to be REW.

Not a lot of support for the Tec3 in the US. There are a bunch of good options now with good support. Haltech or Microtech would have the most support available and they both work great on the 20B. How do I know this? They've both been on my car and worked well. The Wolf 3D was probably the easiest to tune for a novice like me but there is not a lot of support for it here.

Charlies7 is correct though - go with what your tuner wants. It's the best way to ensure you get a good tune and are not responsible for problems if they arise. The tuner can't blame it on the ECU. Don't ask me who I learned this lesson:(

As for rotor housings, call Cam Worth at Pettit Racing - he always has a stock of rotor housings hanging around so you might get lucky. You can get new ones through Ray Crowe at Malloy Mazda but they cost a bundle.

Thanks David! I'm in a limbo as when I talked to Ray Wilson, he said he could tune pretty much anything..

I talked to Logan and he prefers Tec3..

I had the E11v2 but sold it when someone told me Haltec was working on a new ECU.. Haltec was my choice then but now I'm debating again...

Thanks David for the info on pettit. I am still looking for some MINT low mileage housings by next week so I can get them over to AZ rotary rockets. I did talk to my tuner again and he likes the haltech to, and its cheaper..

Im starting to think about my choice, I need to choose soon though because I want this car running a couple months from now.

WOW!! You want this to be moving in 2 months?? Dang.. I'm not even close right now :)

Not anymore

Update to come, and its not so good.

if you guys decide to go haltech, let me know, we are running a sale on them right now, and the new platinums are insane.

whats the bad news charlie?

You mean not alot of tuners for it yes?

Because unlike just about everything else, that box is made stateside and also serviced there.

I *really* like my TECgt :)

Yes. The TEC unit is not for the everyday guy. For those more knowledgeable, it's an alternative.

Well just got some pictures from Glen concerning the engine. Looks like there is a chunk taken out of a coolant jacket that touches the OUTER coolant seal. Going to see if there is a solution to this problem.

I think its fixable..

Hope it all pans out for you!

I hope so to, I am very confident that it will work out.

Ordering the material for the TB's this week. Also getting enough for two sets so hopefully another NA 20b will try them out and test them for me.:icon_tup:

Gordon maybe??

I have some excellent S5 TII rotor housings. You would have to fill in the coolant port holes but they are about as nice as a used set of housings get. PM me if interested.

David PM me your phone number..I lost it.

I need those housings!!

Rotors are race clearanced and cleaned

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...ncedrotors.jpg

Daym, I have been debating if I will go 20b or not, I think I may....

I think you should..If you decide to let me know and PM me. I can save you ALOT of money Kai, ;)

Hmm, I plan to do N/A too...

Your inbox is full, so tell how to save $$$$, you can PM me...

Thanks for the heads up, sending PM..

Well on a side note

I am putting together a mock up block while Glen has my engine. Plan on starting the stock subframe mounts and the exhaust header.

Continue gentlemen.

Look forward to you getting your car back on the road. You can't change your mind anymore Charlie... it has to go in the car! Hope to see you at the track in the not too distant future.

Ill be there Brent..

Your not too far away from me!

Once I get the engine back I plan on having it running with a month or 2, break it in, and get it tuned.

Ok, points have been made..

NOW we can get back on topic about whats going into my car.

I respect both view points on this but its off topic now.

Glen is a respectable builder and im sure Phils builder is respectable as well...This is turning into a bias battle on ideas.

Ill update this weekend with parts and more info hopefully..

So as far as the engine management I have scratched the idea of going Electromotive for 3 reasons;

1) I have decided to go with the new haltech platinum line of ECU's

2) My tuner recently ditched a old Wolf EMS and switched over to a haltech and really likes the setup and the software. However he still likes the Electromotive systems.

3) Cost, im saving almost a grand on the entire thing, I figure I could use the money elsewhere for the car rather than a ECU when the Haltech is just as capable in completing a job.

I also recieved my exhaust manifold flange and lower intake manifold flange from To_slow, great products!

Ill post pictures of the flanges if anyone is interested.

Bear in mind with an Electromotive regarding the cost:

You're getting a superior trigger system with the ECU
You're also getting coils that will never need to be boosted by a CDI. The single tower coils in my car will light 9.00AFR + 375cc of water without blinking an eye.

So if plans are to spend the ECU savings on an ignition, you may want to re-consider.

Just a thought. Obviously they all work well, but the points above were things I never thought about, so just passing it along :)

My thoughts on the clearance issue:

I had a half bridge engine I ran back in the day witha T04-R. I blew it up and when we tore it down I found the front rotor had ALL of its corner seals on the gear side of the rotor jammed in place. There were scrape marks (still have the rotor if someone wants pics) along the tips of the rotor. I didnot build this engine so I can't comment on the care that was taken with regards to setting proper clearance in the first place (basically whether the housing was undersized for the rotor or not) but I can absolutely tell you my rotors contacted the irons at the tips, and the engine was NEVER over reved. In fact it never even saw stock redline.

I'm no expert though :)

Well again, im going off what my tuner feels like he is more comfortable with..He knows both softwares and has tuned more haltech cars then TEC cars.

As far as the ignition goes I plan on running the 034 motorsport coils with the built in TTL drivers.

http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=277

I figure this should be plenty good enough for my NA application. im not happy with the setup I will go the Electromotive setup.

Charlie

Nice looking coils, they're......familiar :)

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...1&d=1246544680

Car is going to be sic though man, I love the N/A 20B's.

Any plans for a custom or tuned length intake? Or just running stock?

Thanks Phil!

Talk to you later

I had a wolf 3d back in the 90's It was horrible. No one had base maps and everything was trial and error back then. Their new stuff may be different, but I haven't ever heard anyone other than the wolf destributors talking up about it. Haltech, PFC for the win!

Gawd, this thread is getting bashed here... :(

I thought all the Electromotive sign wavers disappeared by now.

The Electromotive trigger systems have the *potential* to offer better accuracy.
The loudest argument for this is when they say to shoot your current EMS ignition and watch the marks jump all over the place during accel and decel.
Sure, it can scare people when the see that, but...
The (rotary) engine has some "slop" (sorry, dunno what the technical term for it is called) from the eccentric shaft to the rotors (positions) themselves.
Anyone can see this just be rotating the eccentric shaft itself (by hand) and see how much play it has without the rotors themselves moving.
I believe the Haltech has better *adjustment* resolution versus the TEC, but I haven't checked the specs on the TEC units for years now.
So where does this leaves us?

Coils don't need to be boosted by anything...
Haltech allows you the flexibility to use almost *any* aftermarket coil you want.
Electromotive likes to push their inductive coil advantage (over CDI) - dunno why.
If you're so inclined against CDI, then you're not required to use CDI with a Haltech.
CDI has been proven in racing, so why bash it?
I like CDI cause it's more consistent versus spark plug gap - try and get that kind of consistency with changing spark plug gap with inductive coils.
LSx coils have been proven (with Haltech set-up's) that do not require CDI for years.
I bet the LSx coils are cheaper versus replacement coils from Electromotive?
Again, flexilbility is the key here, and you're not locked into buying the coils from the EMS brand manufacturer.
There is no mystery on inductive coil technology...
You have input voltage, # of windings or ratio, and output voltage dependent on the two previous...
If your spark is blowing out or not strong enough, either jack up the input voltage or increase the # of windings!
If the spark is still not strong enough, why don't we all run magnetos???

Sorry, I just had to add my 2 cents here due to the bad information...


-Ted

I'm no electromotive "sign waver" I'm just discussing the aspects of teh system vs. the other considerations he had. He said he was undecided at the start so I was just bringing up some points to consider.

I never said CDI was bad. I just said that the TEC coils work GREAT without it - which is entirely true.
I never said a stock trigger system is bad. I just said the TEC one is superior, which is arguable sure, but how many people have trouble with trigger with an FC CAS? How many different setting do you need to have in a haltech to make it work perfectly? None of these issues exist with the TEC, you install the wheel, mount the mag sensor and it just works - flawlessly. To me, the superiority is there - you never have to worry about it. If the ECU doesn't get a good signal it just doesn't run. With my previous Haltech if the signal wasn't good, the spark would jump all over the place and the tach would go nuts.

Also flexibility can be a good or bad thing. Email haltech and ask for settings for X and Y coils and boxes. Unless you talk to matt you'll get a different answer everytime. I'd rather have a system that I know works to full capacity out of the box with little guess work.

Every system has its quirks, none of them are perfect its just a matter of what works for you.

Now I'll shut up and keep this thread on track :lol: