Project86- My first (and probably not the last) Rebuild
 

Ok... so i parked the 7 this weekend:(. obviously a sad day. i finally got my dd... which i am a little embarrassed to say its a honda. but im using it for what its meant for :001_005:. im not sure how often i can update being that my baby is an hour away. but updates will be available AND this rebuild is not on the "other" forum haha.... so this is it, im in for the long haul.:driving:

welcome and thanks for the support....can't wait to see the progress. It's taken me 5+ years to get where I am today....don't stress, it'll get done.

pffft - noobies. I'm 12+ years deep at this point ;)

So whats in store for this rebuild. Anything special, swaps perhaps. We demand details or you will be found and hung up by your pubes.

What did I tell you Kyle? Just wait until you decide to do your REW swap.:001_005::):)

:o11: damn, that's forever! I thought I was feigning for boost can't imagine what you felt.

I'm with TT, bought my first 1991 Brave Blue FC in 1997.

I tried to sell my FC, but the wife wants me to keep it and rebuild it. I can't get away from these damn things!!

It has been 6 years for me so far

Damn show off... I'm only 3 years in come end of august.

I'm glad you at 12 years, i'm on year 8 total, year 3 on this build...

Titanium... honestly... and Murray will back me up on this.. i plan to do and have been planning to do the RE swap. i will start aquiring parts as i have the funds. and after lookin at yours its soundin real good to stick with the sequential set up. im going to start on exterior. plans as of now for that are to strip the whole thing, clean, prep for paint and i want to go pearl white. i want to do something with the interior as well. probably black with custom guage set up and so on. please feel free to shoot me opinions.. im all for constructive criticism.



Sean i fo sho will take my time. i want to do this right. i am plannin on having someone do the engine rebuild for me once i get the RE since i have never done it before. however i plan to tear down the good ole na when i pull it and see how she looks after all these years. ill probably use it as practice for disassembly and reassembly and possibly some porting experience.

Titanium.. i noticed on your thread that you mentioned something about doing rebuilds? did i read that right?

Here is what I would do........... honestly my route looking back was way too expensive. I went with the sequentials becuase it was a pipe-dream from when I was 18 that was fueled by a lot of people saying that it either wasn't worth it, or couldn't be done. Telling me it can't be done is like daring me to do it. About a month after I bought my FC a buddy worked at a dealership. He called me up and said he got an FD in that I had to drive. So I went down there under the guise of trading my FC in for the FD and we went for a test drive. I got out, semi-erect and proclaimed that one day, that engine, or those turbo's would be in my car. That's one of the reasons that I did what I did. The other being a bunch of people telling me that the sequentials can't be controled and the third being that I auto-x. Big power isn't really necessary for auto-x's but linear power is. The sequentials deliver that.

Obstacles to overcome when using the 13B-RE with the REW twins are
1) plumbing the oil and coolant lines
2) plumbing all the vac lines and more importantly memorizing them and knowing which line does what and for what purpose
3) building or using a vac and boost chamber
4) mounting all the solenoids or finding Rob Bailey and buying his (I GOT REALLY lucky)
5) intercooler piping - it all has to be custom and retardedly tight
6) exhuast, all custom
7) harness for the engine, the sequentials etc etc is pretty elaborate and needs to be custom
8) and then the normal shite that you need for any swap.

In my eyes, the only way that you're going to be able to control the sequentials properly if they're on the wrong engine is going to be with an ECU that can control and operate all of the solenoids individually. I say this becuase the RE is pretty different from the REW in a few respects. Intake plenum size, runner length, the EMAPs I'm sure are different as well as the pumping velocity/effiecency of the engine. This all means that the turbo's are going to react differently. The factory has the transition set ~4500. I can tell you mine will be substantially less. This all adds up to the stock ECU won't control them, and I HIGHLY doubt the PFC will either ( the PFC has it's own set of problems running on the RE but not the REW). That leaves, at least when I was doing the research, one option - Motec M820. Which when all is said and done will run you approx $8,000. It is far and away though, the best ECU that I have ever seen and I know alot of proffesionals agree with me as well.

That being said, there are a few people that have run the sequentials with the Haltech, however, in talking with them the transition is much less than desireable. One guy was running it at stock levels and he said flatout it's like a kick in the ass when the 2nd turbo comes online, pretty lame if you ask me. The other was running 15-16psi, dropping to 12ish and then hitting 16 psi again. My goal, and you can only do this with the Motec, is to control all the different solenoids individually and get a transition that is smoother than the factories. This is something that Dave @ KDR is really looking forward to playing around with as am I. The control that the Motec offers cannot be compared to anything. <- That's a period meaning this statement is done with ;)

So, now you're looking at a choice..... $8000 for an ECU that is garunteed to work properly, change the turbo choice, or change the engine. When I was looking at turbo's trying to justify my choice for running the twins, it was pretty easy - 3 years ago. The single turbo's that were available then couldn't match the low end torque of the twins (I'm making 15psi by 2500rpm) but they could easily match the high end power goals that I had - 380. A GT32R will hit that max RWHP but when you lay the dyno graphs over each other, the twins make more HP and more tq down low. At least that was the case a few years ago. In talking with a few people recently, there are turbo's out now that can come a little closer. So, is your goal response, or power? Mine was, and still is response. If you can deal with power coming on a few thousand RPM later, I would really consider a single for the cost and simplicity advantage. If you want response, there really is no subsitute.

So we're back to a choice, change the turbo, change the engine, or spend a shitton of money on an ECU. If you really want to use the twins I would consider using the REW engine. People bitch and moan about the mounting problems associated with it but to me it's pretty easy - weld a crossbeam of steel to the subframe, drill some holes, weld in some round tube stock for the bolts and be done with it. Basically copy the FD's subframe mounting. It seemd simple to me yet people constantly build these ridiculously complicated mounts that run from the back of the engine up to the FC mounting location that loads the hell out of the mounts. Not to mention that by moving the mounting point of the engine back, you'll handeling will benefit from it as well. Not as much as moving the engine back to that point but where that load is on the chassis is moved farther back as well. To me, mounting an REW in an FC is something that is way simpler than people willl have you believe. Shit, you could even take the REW center iron to a machine shop and have it drilled and tapped, use the FC oil pan and complete stock mounting.

I mention doing all of that for a reason. You could, with minimal effort, and there are a few write ups on it, use a PFC in the FC. Banzai has done it before. Call up Ray Crowe or if you're as lucky as I am Mazda Motorsports and order a brand new REW engine harness. A friend of mine WAS selling one, I'm not sure if he still has it but that answer is a txt msg away. So, to me, the easiest and most effeicient and ACCURATE way to use the twind in an FC is to drop an REW into the car, buy a PFC and a new engine harness, splice everything together electrically and get it done for about 25% of the price that I paid. Thinking back, that would've probably been the better way to go but, whatever, things to think about when planning out a project. I spent over a year, literally, just jotting down ideas, things the overcome, reasons, problems, solutions, etc etc etc so that when I started my swap, I really didn't have any unanswered questions.

As for the rebuilds, yes, I will certainly take on a few but it's not going to be my main source of income. At most I'll have one on the table and one waiting just to keep me busy but not overwhelmed. So if you're interested, shoot me a PM and we'll work something out. I even have an engine cradle that I built that I can mount a longblock too, stuff in the back of my truck and drive around...... or ship easily.

Anywho, things to think about when doing swaps - whats the ultimate goal, and what's the price that I'm willing to pay. And I didn't even touch upon tuning! Motecs aren't really heavily supported by the local tuning shops. Motec themselves offeres support that is far and away better than Haltech, microtech, whatevertech

titanium .. all i can say is wow. i appreciate very much your input. single turbo is something i am also very seriously considering. the simplicity would be very nice and i dont mind waiting for the power.. hell man im na right now. with the RB header and 2.5in exhaust all the way back im not gettin my power till about 3500-4000 anyway (but she pulls real good :001_005:). As far as power goals go i think i want at least 300whp. i dont want to go so extreme with porting and stuff that i cant drive it on the street. from what i know about porting at this point i dont think i want to go any bigger than street port ( but i would like pretty sized one)
As far as your points with tuning shops... that really isnt an option for me because that sort of work isnt really in demand here. i will probably end up reading alot and tuning myself and hopefully the occassional help from Murray and a couple others i know here.

ill take some pictures this weekend of the car before i start to take anything out of it. hopefully ill be able to post them. i dont know if its the site or my comp but i have been having a few problems gettin it to work.

If all you're looking for is around 300RWHP then I would actually consider using a BNR hyrbrid. It'll be almost a bolt on affair and then it leaves room to grow with a full aftermarket Garret and a custom manifold. The Turblown and A-Spec mani's are works of art and with a properly sized turbo, the reposnse can be made to be much better than a BNR single. Just something to think about.

If you start with the twins and then go single, depending on the route you take, there will be a TON of unneccessary crap there that you will have paid good money for that will just end up in the trash or trying to sell. So, I would think long and hard about what you want out of this car before deciding on which route you want to take.

If response is the ultimate goal - twins without a doubt but it will cost more in the long run.

If 300RWHP is the goal and you don't mind waiting a little for the power, I would really consider a small sized single, full ball bearing, and really concentrate on doing you're homework on manifold sizing and exhuast porting. Think Pineapple EP2A port. Seems to spool the twins ~ 1krpm earlier with my setup. Which is pretty sick.

When are you hitting boost (0psi)? I'm curious, I want to compare, I could not see my boost coming on quicker than it already is.

ill start readin up.if i decide to go single the twins on the RE are gonna come off before i get it rebuilt.

Non sequentially around 3k. Sequentially, as soon as I hit the go-pedal

Kyle,

I would consider just going a 60-1 route with stock ports. That is what my set up is close to and hell, that 6 months of research and tuning really paid off when it came time for full boost on my FC. Shit, you felt how strong that previous POS motor felt...that all had to do with my tune. Ultimately you could use some of my maps as a baseline(if you choose the Power FC) and I could assist you in buddy tuning. However, I have some great tuning resources and material that you need to read. the more you understad these crucial fundementals, the easier troubleshooting and critical thinking become in relation to your tune and driveability.

PLUS I achieve full boost by 3200 rpm so lag is not bad by any means just in case you are reluctant with the single set-up.

wow... sequentially sounds amazing. i hit it at 1.5-2k depending on load. I have to fix all my vac leaks if i want to see better

Sean thanks alot my friend.. im not reluctant at all to be single turbo. im was very impressed with your power delivery and how strong it felt. so single turbo is lookin like a go for me right now. im gonna do some reading on the power FC and i already did some on the MoTeC M2R. IM likin their digital display set up too! BTW sean i changed my drive shaft and that eliminated the clunking i was gettin. it turns out after i pulled the old one off the front ujoint pretty much didnt move at all. i am however still getting some sort of screeching noise from undrerneath.....

Here are some pics of my car as it sits now. its been about a week since i have seen it going on two (damn 1hr drive and no days off).
Sean? your ports are pretty mild then im guessing? and your turbo is 60-1. Im still really thinkin about the PFC too cause i know i can get it for cheap. Hooray for r&d! What stuff do you have that i need to read?

My ports look to be slightly larger then the 13REW. I think the 13RE are slightly larger(maybe mistaken) SO if you go that route our ports will be pretty damn close. My turbo is a 62-1 with a .83 hotside

ok cool. i did some reading on the bnr turbos last night and stage 2 or 3 is lookin pretty good. they are 60-1, but i think the hotside is just stock size still since they are using stock tII turbos. on stage 3 they are porting the wastegate to 30mm i do believe.

Matts turbo, my old turbo was basically a stage three. I would just fork out for the 4th stage if you are going to go hybrid.

yeah its not really that much more and i think the hp range of the stage 4 is just over 400 rwhp. and i think thats with a35mm wg. did you say you had some stuff i need to read?

yeah, i will send it your way once you get an ECU. Otherwise it will go through one ear and out the other. :)

oh ok thats cool. i think i might just go with the pfc. proven and cheap :) well... relatively. isnt about time to stack yo shit?!

Next week my friend....next week

hell yes! i really hope i can make it there for some of it at least. i think there might be some love for my 7 sooner than i thought. a couple friends of mine are buying a house soon i think and they are thinkin i might be able to move in with them which means ill be able to have a place to park it closer. AND... im gettin a turbo from matt so i can send it in to bnr to have it reworked :D

gonna do it on mon night, tuesday and wed.

monday im off for sure

here is the turbo im gonna use for the bnr rebuild. I think its S5 but im not totally sure. haha.. now lets see how long it takes me to save the money for it :001_005:

^Definitely an S5.

ok cool good to know. i have been chattin with bryan at bnr. he says the s4 can actually make 10-20 more whp but ill be satisfied with this im sure

so quick update. i think i have decided to just go S5 13BT. I have been givin it some thought, and i dont want my build to take me until im fifty. Not tryin to sound impatient just tryin to maybe be more realistic for my current financial situation, because the 13BT would also be quite a bit cheaper that the RE conversion and i will be just as happy. It will also allow me to have resources more available to me. So im going to start getting housings and irons. Im going to do the actually assembly myself and have someone else do the porting. After helping Murray with his assembly today i feel more than capable that i can do it. Im either going to just save for a while and buy new housings and irons or hope i can find some in good shape. Ill be satisfied either way.
I plan on pulling my engine next time im in at my parents house if i have time. i may wait a few months to do anything with it until i move into a new place. ill try to keep this updated to keep everyone following from gettin to bored :)

ok so i think i may have found some s5 irons a friend of mine has here. should be able to pick them up for about 150 bucks, then ill clean them and lap them and have them ported. im curious if i can use a s4 front iron though instead because i think i would rather use the mech. omp instead of the 1500 dollar electrical one. i am for sure gonna buy new housings and im debating if i want to use the s4 turbo rotors or if i also want to buy the s6 rotors my friend has too. i know i wont be able to run as much boost on pump gas without messing with timing( advice from murray if i understood correctly) but they are local which makes things alot easier on me as far as money and availability obviously. he wants 250 for the rotors? and suggestions are welcome.

The front iron has nothing to do with the choice of OMP, that's the duty of the front cover and they are interchangeable as long as you adhere keep the same waterpump assembly as well...

Whichever irons you use, that is the intake mani that you need to use as well so keep that in mind too.

As far as the choice in rotors, if you're going standalone, it really doesn't matter, I would use the S6 rotors as they are the strongest and will give you better low end grunt as well as cruising effeicency.

ok. so the water pump is interchangeable too then? awesome. then i shall use the s6 rotors... ill need to measure them first of course as far as the gaps for the apex seals etc. dont want to sound like a noob but do the irons and rotors have any aluminum in them at all. just askin because of an idea i have for cleaning.

The waterpumps are not entirely interchangeable. I know an S6 will fit a 13B-RE, and I BELIEVE that the S4 waterpump assembly will fit an S5 front cover, but the S5 waterpump assembly will NOT fit on an S4 front cover. I believe that's what we did on my buddies car before he decided to pussy out and go to the dark side.

The waterpumps themselves are not interchangeable and must be kept with thier respective assemblies.

There is no aluminum in the irons, I don't believe in the rotors. I would be careful about cleaning the rotors though due to the babbit material on the bearings.

Since you've already got the S4 N/A, just use that front cover and waterpump assembly and eliminate all potential guess work. The only thing that you'll need to do is plumb in a coolant return line for the turbo. As simple as drilling and tapping for a pipe fitting or do what I did, weld on a, AN bung :icon_tup:

fantastic. so s4 front cover and water pump assembly with s5 everything else. ill post some pics of how i want the exterior too look for the most part