auxiliary injection-who here has it?
 

I haven't seen much discussion on this forum about it, just curious who has it, which system it is, what you're running exactly, etc.

On a side note, I have an FJO water/methanol injection kit that I'm about to install, and I was looking for a place to mount the pump. It's a Shurflow pump, and I was thinking about mounting it near the diff but I'm not sure it will fit there. Anyone have any suggestions?

I'm running a Coolingmist basic kit. Pump is mounted where the washer fluid tank was, and the tank is mounted where the battery was.

I have no idea if it will fit by the diff I can't remember how much room is back there, but I do know the Shurflow pump was a good bit larger than I expected it to be.

Yeah it's a good size pump. I want to keep my washer bottle, and I have an Odyssey PC680 battery mounted up front next to the VMIC, so I don't have room for the tank up there, but I should have plenty of room to mount the pump there...or rather under where the stock battery is. My tank will be in the front part of the hatch, under the strut bar, so my only concern with mounting the pump up front will be that it's so far away from the tank, but I'm not sure that matters. Not to mention the fact that it would be right next to the engine, the huge heat pump itself. The diff puts off some heat too, but not as much as the engine, and if I mount it next to the diff it will get plenty of air running over it.

I have the AEM kit installed, switching over to the Devils Own kit this weekend. The AEM uses the 150psi Sure Flow pump. The Devils Own kit is 250 psi pump, not sure who makes the pump but I wanted the better atomization from the smaller jet/higher pressure.

I use the washer tank and have the pump mounted inside the under tray. Most kits will work better if the pump is below the tank. Makes it easier for the pump to prime.

Dan

I might just mount the pump in the spare tire well since my spare won't even work for me anymore haha, but I'd be afraid it wouldn't get enough airflow to cool it there. I have some pretty thick metal to build a bracket to mount it next to the diff though, so I might just do that.

I don't see airflow being a problem in the spare tire well, unless you keep it covered up for long periods of use. If you are tracking or dragging it all the covers are out and air is moving around back there.

Well it will mainly be used on the street, and I'll have it covered with the carpet, that's what I mean. I'm not sure it will get enough air during every day driving.

When I FINALLY get the car on the track, I'll most likely be gutting it for the day, yes.

I have a mechanically (boost) driven WI preturbo kit that i built myself. Flows 500cc at 20 psi boost pressure. Activated at 8 psi.pushing around 500 hp, knock low 20's. 11:1 afr, 10 degrees leading timing. Plan to run 25 psi.

I'm now running 23 psi and 575cc of water. I'll make a thread describing my setup. I'm considering building them and selling them for other people too.

I installed this Coolingmist trunk mount kit:
http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmai...ricooltrunkMAF

This uses the varicool controller and the 150 PSI pump.

I am using the smaller of the 2 supplied injectors, which is about 400cc/minute.

Haven't used it on a track day yet, but have used it on quite a few autocrosses.

The FD motor runs really clean after a couple autox runs.

I use the basic coolingmist trunk kit, 150psi pump, no vari-controller, just turns on at 10psi. Using the 380cc nozzle (M5). I'm using it purely as a safety device, I'm not "tuning up" for it.

I like that the trunk mount was pretty simple and straight forward. So far I've been plenty happy with it.

Alright guys, so what liquid is everyone running? I've seen a couple of you mention it, but it hasn't really been touched on a whole lot. I did more research on this several months ago, but the information is on my laptop that crashed. I had kinda settled on running mostly water with maybe about 10% meth, maybe even less. Mostly just because I'm not planning on tuning up with it (that way if the system fails it won't blow the engine), and because distilled water is readily available and cheaper than running full meth/etc. I've read about some pros and cons about different liquids/mixes, some of which may not be true, but I'll start the list below. Please add and/or correct anything you see fit.

Methanol
Pros-
-Cools intake air more than water, but not combustion chamber
-Allows tuning up (substitute for fuel)
-Won't freeze in the winter
Cons-
-Costs money, but still cheaper than denatured alcohol
-Not as readily available as water or denatured alcohol
-Corrosive to the system, especially if ran 100%
-I've HEARD if it's left in the tank for a while it will turn to a jelly-like substance, not sure how true that is.

Denatured Alcohol
Pros-
-Not corrosive like methanol
-More readily available than meth
-Close to the same octane as meth, and equal benefits
-Won't freeze in the winter
-Allows tuning up
Cons-
-Much more expensive than meth and water

Water
Pros-
-Free from the tap (if you're that brave), or distilled for fairly cheap
-Readily available
-Cools combustion chamber more than meth, but not intake charge
Cons-
-Will freeze in the winter
-Cannot tune up, usually lose HP

I've read about people using HEET (99% Isopropanol) also. And it's been suggested that I use distilled water most of the time, and add just a little meth or whatever for the winter time. However, I won't be driving the car in the winter anyway because it's too hard to control in the snow/ice (and that was with lower HP, before adding the 500R). I'm still concerned about the fluids freezing in the pump and lines though. I've also seen people run windshield washer fluid, but from what I hear it leaves residue and that wouldn't exactly be good for the injector.

I'll chime in and correct/add a few things.

Water if atomized correctly, and if running a proper ignition system won't cause a loss in power. Many people see an increase in power.

Water CAN be tuned up on, either by running more timing, leaner mixtures, or higher boost. I'm currently running 23 psi on water alone with no knock. I run tap water, which is not being brave just smart. There is nothing in it that is any more contaminated then gasoline from the gas station. I run a filter and regularly check my nozzle.

Other points to consider, meth/alcohol you need to run 2-3 times more for the same knock suppressing effects as water. But alcohol does cool the intake charge better.

Another drawback to alcohol AI systems is they require removing fuel from the maps. If the injection system fails, the motor is toast. This means you need a very reliable setup, which if you plan on pushing the limits with any aux system it should be reliable. I've had my system not functioning at least once at 23 psi, but due to my fairly conservative tune and only using water my motor was fine.

Another good option is to run 50/50, it has the best of both worlds and is more of a compromise between water or alcohol. Benefits include less usage over alcohol (smaller nozzle), better intake cooling over water, good knock suppressing effects, cost per volume is less then meth/alcohol, and less fuel pulled from the maps. I' plan to experiment with it sometime but I prefer free right now.

I'm guessing the "denatured alcohol" would be Ethanol, as thats the other popular choice for AI.

Points:
Ethanol has a flash point of 55.4* F
Methanol has flash point of 51.8*F

A gallon of ethanol = .........84,400 Btu..............(gasoline =125,000 Btu)
Gallon of methanol = .........62,800 Btu.............. (E85 =90,500 Btu)

Octane rating of ethanol is..129 RON..........(gasoline = 91-95 RON)
Octane of methanol is........123 RON................. (E85 = 105 RON)

What this means is it takes more methanol then ethanol to reach the same heat value (btu), and to raise the octane level of the mixture to a certain point (injecting more). It also means that the air temperatures will be reduced more, both due to the lower flash point, and the requirement for more of the fuel to be used.

Hope that helps add some more info on the subject.

Thanks for your input!

So in your opinion, if using a 50/50 mix, would you suggest denatured alcohol (ethanol) instead of methanol?

That's EXACTLY why I would like to run just water.

But THIS is why I wanna run 50/50 haha.

And I was not aware you could tune up on water either.

If i was to run 50/50 i would probably go with meth and water since it's easier to come by. The corrosive effects wouldnt be as bad with a mix, but i would still find a system thats meant for it. If i wanted to run alcohol anyway.
.
I don't rely on every small tweek to make power, if i can keep my air temps reasonable and knock down i use more boost to make the power. Over 500 hp with a reliable tune is good enough for me. I'm not going to chase after another 15 hp and reduce reliability.

You mean you'd use Denatured Alcohol? Cause I see that almost everywhere, whereas methanol is alot harder to find from what I can tell.

I agree, I'm not looking to make power off this, and I'm not looking to chase power. I'm mainly looking to use this for reliability.

Actually I meant to say I would use methanol because it's cheaper, I also think it would have more of an effect on cooling the intake charge. It has a slightly lower flash point, and it requires more of it compared to ethanol to have the same effect of richening AFR's. This is due to the lower btu's. On the other hand if you're trying to run as little mixture as possible, ethanol would raise the effective octane higher per volume while still providing cooling effects to the intake charge.

Another thing to add. Some people think 50/50 is a gallon of water and gallon alcohol mixed together to make a 50/50 mix. But it's supposed to be 50/50 by weight not volume. 50/50 by volume is more like 30/70 alcohol/water. Which is probably a decent mixture as well, but there is a difference and people should be specific when comparing.

Cool, thanks for clarifying. I think I'd heard about the weight vs. volume issue before but I forgot about it so I was thinking volume too. Thanks!

Well I did some testing this evening with the preturbo water injection. Cruising temps were 33c (91*F) A good pull in 4th gear caused temps to increase to 42*c (107.6F) this was at 15 psi (low boost) I then let the temps settle back to 33C and did a pull on high boost (23 psi) temps went back to 42c. So it seems that even though the water isn't lowering the temps it's keeping them at a constant temperature regardless of how much boost I run. I would do a pull from 1st to 4th to further test, but my drag radials are too narrow and just spin all over the place. (even in 4th they spin @ 23 psi)

Oh yeah I use the fast reacting sensor mentioned in the other thread so temperatures are accurate.

What other thread? I will probably get one, just need to get more info on it...

I thought HEET (yellow bottle) was 99% methanol...

This thread. http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ead.php?t=8381

The yellow bottle is methanol (97-98%) the red bottle is Isopropanol (iso-heet)
Pure meth works out cheaper if you can find it.

Yes but HEET is always available less than 3 miles from my house. :)

I have the same kit as the OP ( FJO gen 2), installed and working great

^I have yet to even test mine. Did you have it tuned or did you just add some numbers/tune it yourself?

Worked fine from the get go, all the fail safe's worked great as well, just put my AFR's into the 9's on boost with no tuning....from 11.5's, still playing with the tuning.

Well I need to get my car tuned again since I put on the new turbo kit, and I wanted to make sure the kit is working before I take it to TX to get it tuned.

Someone on the other forum said that when he tested the system, he put 50% water to be injected at 0psi. What number would I put in for it to do that? I put .5 and 0.5 and neither of them would stay, but I put 5 in there and that one stayed.

Also for RPM multiplier, he said he put .5, but it only gives the options of (symbol for divided by) 2 for example. Is that what I need to put in order to say .5?

If you're using the tach signal (which is prefered) The correct setting should be divided by 2 for a 2 rotor rotary. (has the same tach signal as a 4 cyl engine)

The flow maps are based on a percentage of full flow. I'm pretty sure you can only use whole numbers. 0 would be 0% flow(no water flow). 50 would be 50% flow. How much flow that actually is depends on the injection mode you chose. (map vs rpm, map vs tps, map based, tps based*) and 100 would be 100% flow. (full open)

*Some modes are based off the cars fuel injector duty. The percent displayed in the WIC table is a percent of the fuel injector duty cycle. Example: WIC Table shows 80% and the measured fuel injection duty is 50% the WIC flow would be 80% of 50% = 60% of the maximum flow.

Do you have the user manual? It explains everything.
Manual, software and firmware can be found Here
Sofware screen shots


PS where in TX are you getting the car tuned?

Thanks!

I'm actually using MAP vs. RPM because I was told by FJO and other guys with this kit that it's the preferred way for street cars. I have the tach wire hooked up too though, so I could use either.

OK cool, I was wondering if I was supposed to put 50 for 50%.

I was under the impression that the FJO kit could read off injector duty cycle, which is pretty much why I got it, but I haven't seen anyone mention it, nor have I seen it mentioned in the directions. Or is that what I would be using if I was reading off TPS?

I do have the user manual, I just keep forgetting to look at it again haha. Thanks again!

Oh I forgot to mention, I'm taking it to Rotary Performance.

Yeah if you were using the TPS it uses injector duty. The downside to that, is it appears you would never get full flow from the nozzle unless your injector duty was at 100 percent duty. Since 100% of say 80% duty is still only 80%. Plus that's kind of confusing to think of it being a percent of a percent, in that case you might as well just put 100 everywhere and let the injector duty control the amount of water being injected.

Hmmm, that's not a bad idea haha. At least that way I wouldn't have to get it tuned, it would be so easy I could tune it myself haha.

I tested the system tonight. I think it's working cause my AFRs are a little lower now, from what I can tell anyway. I had some leaks here and there but I got them tightened down. Now I just have to decide if I wanna run off of TPS or RPM vs. MAP

this has been a great thread even tho it is old. AI kits are very important for our engines longetivity, so here is a nice /bump!

also i am planning on getting an AI kit from Snow Performance for christmas :)

http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=8

Actually I've been meaning to post in here for a couple weeks now.

I think my AI is NOT working now. I disconnected it because I noticed my water level wasn't going down at all, after 2 days of driving. I'm going to use my air compressor to shoot air directly in the vacuum line, and give it gas for RPMs while I have the nozzle out so I can see if it's actually spraying.

yeah doesnt sound like it's spraying. you should see some kind of drop in water level if you have been boosting.

Exactly what I was thinking. What's weird is that I could hear my pump kicking on when I was under boost, so I thought it was spraying until I saw that the water level wasn't dropping. Actually the pump seemed to be kicking on even when I wasn't really boosting much, but I thought maybe I just had the map set up that way. Now I'm worried that maybe I messed up the pump or something.

Disregard. I just tested the water injection and it DEFINITELY works.

I had 25psi from the air compressor (I probably should have tested it at a lower pressure too but whatever), and before even revving the engine it was spraying water when I gave it pressure from the air. comp. Then when I revved the engine higher it sprayed ALOT of water. So it's definitely working.

If I'm running MAP vs. RPM, shouldn't it not spray until I have them BOTH at the settings I prescribed? Or is it supposed to spray when you have at least one of them? Because obviously the car was idling at 1000rpm or less, and I have water set to come on around 2000 or 2500 I think. And I think I have it coming on around 8psi or so, so obviously that was already reached by using 25psi. But I thought it wasn't supposed to spray until I had reached the proper psi AND RPM. Anyone have insight on this? Most likely anyone with this same kit, or at least knows something about it?

If it's a progressive setup, I would think it begins to spray at 8psi and will increase the flow as RPMs climb...

Yeah it's progressive, as far as I can remember anyway. OK cool, thanks!