who makes a good wideband?
 

i am going to need to get myself a wideband shortly. I am running a megasquirt currently. What i would be interested in is if the megasquirt can read a wideband o2 sensor itself thus making it a cheaper deal and also make the datalogging simple. Any MS gurus have anything for me? in the meantime, google

Not sure if any of the MS guys have come up with a wideband controller yet. If not my biggest advice is to avoid Innovate. The new Haltech wideband has been working well for us where we've installed them. I've also had good luck with FJO and the NGK, though the NGK box is rather clunky.

I have a two-year-old, 30,000 mile AEM that just lost the heater in the sensor, but otherwise has been a great sensor. The drawback is that it drifted a little over the years and the range is only 10-20 AFR.

Avoid Innovate like the plague, I have owned one of them and will never buy another, two of my friends have also had trouble with them.

The Megasquirt, as it stands, does not include a wideband controller, but with minor mods, can read the output from two widebands (the 0-5v signal)

I have used Innovate LC-1s to good extent, but the sensor that ships with them doesn't last very long. I replaced the one it shipped with after a couple of months of dyno duty, and the one in my daily I replaced after six months. In both cases, after I replaced the sensor, I haven't had trouble with them.

i hear alot of people using the LC-1. what sensor did you replace it with?

Innovate has been GREAT for me. I had the AEM UEGO but I went with the LC-1/XD-16 set up because my AEm wouldn't sync with my Datalogit accurately. Other specs of the LC-1 that sold me was the self testing sensor, free air calibration and fully custimizable AFR spectrum. Their customer support is AWESOME too!!

What happened NODOHC???

I don't know what happened, I know it was wired correctly, because I temporarily replaced it with an older 7-wire LC1 sensor of my friends and it worked perfectly, but I could never get mine to take a free-air calibration. I didn't feel that I had the time to fool with it, so I just put my AEM one back in (works great, just takes some time to heat up).

I was sold on the Innovate for the same reasons, and that I had used my friends in the past with excellent success, this one did not work nearly as well.

If I had time, I would reconnect it, call technical support, and get it working. However, in my book, I shouldn't have to call the customer support service to install a wideband and make it work. I had no trouble installing and wiring my Haltech ECU without needing to call the technical support services. (Which is a lot more complicated than a wideband).

I'm on the Innovate hating band wagon as well.... I have never seen one that did not have problems.

I really like the PLX and and the Tech Edge.

And don't let anybody fool you 99% of the aftermarket wide bands use the same 7200 Bosch O2 sensor, the other 1% use the 17025 sensor. All of the controllers have the same features of sensor checking, heater control and free air calibration, if it doesn't you should look for different product.

You can pick up a replacement Bosch wideband sensor on Jegs for ~$60, which is what I've been using in my dyno cell for over a year now. I've never had any trouble calibrating it, either, which I do every morning I'm running on the dyno.

Edit: Actually, I've looked, and it doesn't seem like Jegs stocks it anymore; you might try summit. It's a reasonably standard sensor.

Dave filled me in on that little secret as well. If you can't find them at the mail order places you should be able to take the old sensor to a Napa type place and have the cross the P/N to whatever vehicle it was on, jot that down and just order from thier on out. Unbelievable really, same sensor sells for 3x that from a bunch of EFI places

I just bought a Bosch sensor last week. Used to get them from a VW dealer for around $50 but they've nearly doubled their price. Autozone has them for $53.99...with a 1 year warranty! So, when it fails from too much race gas I'm taking it back and getting another. Tell them you have an 01 Golf GTI with the 1.8T and you want the pre-cat sensor. Autozone part# 17014

Actually Innovate drives the heater control in a different manner than everyone else. Partly what is responsible for them being heat sensitive (how many other wideband manufacturers need to sell you a heat sink?) and for the Innovate skewing readings depending on sensor temp.

You guys that love them need to venture over to the efi-101 forums and read the love the hardcore tuners have for Innovate.

:rofl: Nice. I like very much. They were also available on some model escalade as well. Id rather say I drive a farfrompuken than a GM though so this works out better ;)

I'm going to make a few corrections here as there are a bunch different Bosch Wideband sensors available.

I'm not sure of which ones that all the aftermarket kits are using, and there are a few different ones. Personally, I'm using a Bosch LSU 4 sensor. The part number @ autobone is 16066. This is their 5 wire sensor that is common with a certain ECU :suspect:

Bottom line is, autobone can look up their part number based off the one on the old sensor. Don't make an ass out of yourself like I just did and rattle off a bunch of cars only to have them grab the wrong sensor :rofl:

The Bosch LSU was $87 today

I've only had the chance to test two, but under extreme duty the PLX devices wideband stood up to the most abuse. I had it installed in my offroad car when I took it to the desert and it took every bit of dirt, debris, high ambient temp, and hard impact without a single problem. A couple months ago I was driving around, and the control box slipped between the seats and out the bottom of the car. I DRAGGED it 5 miles on pavement before I realized what happened... It still works fine!

The Innovate lasted only 2 weeks in a friend's off-road car. One hard hit, and it was done. He's very unhappy with it.

So there's my very odd 2 cents.

I have the Innovative which I'm happy with. A few friends swear by the PLX & the Zetronics, none of them like the AEM.

i have an aem, has worked great for almost 3 years

I run the innovate lc1 and have had no problems with it in almost 3 years now. Sensor life is usually shortened if you have it too close to the turbo. Best to have it just before the midpipe.

I used to avoid AEM electronics after a bad experience with their Pnp ecu, but that was 7 years ago and I hear they are better now.

This wideband of theirs looks pretty cool.

http://www.wannaspeed.com/index.php?...roducts_id=328

Can connect over wifi, displays on iphone, itouch, android, and storm 2, has 5v output for dataloging, can connect to external gauge, and probably one of the coolest things I had never seen before in a wideband controller is dual EGT probe inputs for logging EGT's along with AFR's.

Works for some & doesn't for others!

AEM, most bang for your buck!

The reason that I went with an Innovate the second time, rather than buying another AEM (which has been a good product) was the ability to calibrate and the corresponding accuracy.

The Innovate gives the opportunity to calibrate the wideband frequently in free air to compensate for the long-term degradation in the actual wideband sensor.

The AEM wideband (which can't be re-calibrated) can be off by up to 0.5 AFR after years of use, which could mean death to a closely-tuned turbo car. I think this is the reason that many people do not like them.

At the same time, on an NA car the AEM is fine because if you shoot for 13.2:1 by the wideband, you are probably reasonably close to peak power (error range of 12.7:1 to 13.7:1, which all makes good power). Running a NA engine lean of 13.4:1 (peak power) won't hurt it, you will just lose power (no valves to burn or pistons to melt).

A while back I bought the Innovate Wideband kit with the Bosch sensor. I like it a lot, it worked well. I mounted it too close to the turbo and started to get error codes saying it was too close. I then moved it but it was too late, I damaged the sensor. Let's call this sensor number 1. Keep in mind the time to jack the car up, take the downpipe off, tap a new hole, take to shop to get the new bung welded on etc.....

So I go out and get a new sensor. Now this worked great. I mounted it on the downpipe but closer to the midpipe. Things were great. Everyday I drive the car to and from work and loved the new sensor. All was good. I now needed to tune the car and added some C16 and after a short time it started reading lean and I added more fuel until the sensor was toast, let's call this sensor number 2.

So I went on the Innovate forum and posted about it and was told it should be good up to 500 hours. So I went out and bought another bosch sensor but this time did not use it and just sold the unit with a brand new sensor. So I started doing some more research, more can add to this or correct me if I am wrong anywhere.

Most of the 'cheaper' wideband kits come with the Bosch sensor, the LSU4.2 sensor is most common. These sensors cost anywhere from $50-$90. These are great sensors if you are not going to be using leaded fuel. They do not tolerate heat very well and should be mounted a little further away. Making a copper heat sink will help as well.

Now, the better kits come with the NTK sensors. These sensors are way more durable and can tolerate heat very very well. These sensors cost anywhere from $250-300 just for the sensor alone, not the kit. There are 2 NTK sensors. There is an old school L1H1 and a newer L2H2. The L1H1 is no longer in production. I called a few manufactorers of wideband and asked about the various sensors, they all referred to the NTK L1H1 sensor as "bulletproof"
These L1H1 sensor costs more than the L2H2, about $50 more.

The L2H2 is also a great sensor and replaced the L1H1. If you are looking to get a wideband kit and plan on running leaded fuel, you should try to get a kit that uses an NTK sensor.

I ended up getting the FJO Wideband Kit with the older L1H1 setup. Others have been using this setup for years with no issues. I absolutely love it. I have gone through about 10 drums of C16 in the past few months and the sensor is holding up well. I have the sensor mounted in the same spot the Bosch was mounted in that burnt up. I drive the car daily (when it was warm) and the sensor is holding up excellent and works very very well.

The extra cost of any kits with the NTK sensor is well worth it in the long run if you run leaded fuel. The Innovate Kit cost me $400 when it first came out with the LC1. 2 sensors went bad which were $75 each. Total cost is $550 but hours of trying to get it right. The FJO kit or other kits using the NTK L2H2 cost roughly $650-$800 but will work well right out of the box.

To take the sensors up one more notch up is the NTK sensor that is hand balanced from the factory. (thanks Enzo250 for this info) These sensors are roughly $800-$1000 and used by more experienced tuners.

So in the end before buying a wideband look at the environment it will spend the most time in. If you are going to be using Leaded fuel,even sometimes, you might want to consider the NTK sensors. If you are going to be running pump gas all the time, then the Bosch sensors are ok for you.

I've been using Innovate LC-1/XD-16 for a couple years with no problems. I've only been on the dyno a couple times with it but the sensor held up fine, and I haven't been using a heat sink or doing free-air calibrations (mostly because I forgot all about it lol), I would just turn it on and go. My sensor is mounted halfway in my midpipe, right under my shifter hole. It just quit working the other day, but that may be because when I had the tranny out I just let the midpipe hang by the sensor lol. Not sure though.

OK, well I'm slowly joining the Inno-hate club. I ordered a new sensor (just the Bosch style since I won't be running leaded fuel, it came out to about $90 shipped from them) and I'm getting the same problems as the last one, three dashes, which from what I've read indicates no reading from the sensor. I've called about 5 times today and it's like no one is working there anymore. I'm pretty pissed off at this point. I'm looking at FJO and PLX, I've never checked out Tech Edge. Any others (not AEM)?

I used an AEM to tune a couple turbo hondas, and it got the job done, but I prefer the Innovate LC-1.

i have bin using fast wideband works great....i like that it has a cigaratte lighter plug.

I use a Neko AF700 as permanent install in my RX7, one friend of mine uses the same meter to tune with.

I also use an Autronic B-Model, this one is nice as a stand alone unit not requiring a PC to set up outputs etc.

The Neko uses a hand calibrated NTK
The Autronic is not as good using just a Lab Grade EUGO NTK

Both are light years ahead of lots of other I have used. :smash:

From what everyone is saying... It seems to be that the sensors are the problem, not the actual wideband hardware.

I have the Innovate LM-1, which I only have in the car when I tune it. I also only run pump gas in the car, and a bit of water/meth. Which gives cooler exhaust temps. So the sensor shouldnt really be a problem for me.

Does anyone have a problem with the actual Innovate set-up that dosnt involve the sensor?

Can you upgrade any one of the above listed "better" sensors to the Innovate set-up?

Just to update, as it turns out the cable between the LC-1 and gauge had come unplugged and THAT is why I was getting the three dashes...so technically I still haven't had any problems with the Innovate wideband. They called me back the day after I called them about 5 times and they told me just because it gets three dashes doesn't necessarily mean the sensor is bad, it just means the gauge is getting no communication from the LC-1 at all, so the LC-1 could have been bad too, but in this case it was just the cable.

I feel like an idiot for not checking all my connections, it just never crossed my mind.

Yes,

The innovate is a toy > like all the ones in that price bracket especial tech edge crap ! they are always OUT compared to professional meters *you should always expect +-0.2 AFR on average with these*.

I tested all of them not on lab gases out of a bottle but on a real car on common feed to new sensors and the cheaper units always especially at rich mixtures were quite random.

I used to bestow the virtues of Innovate stuff wrote hundreds of posts on them and was the sole Australian dealer, but given what I know now there is no way in hell I would recommend one or their technology which is on sold to people like Helltech. NOR would I ever recommend the techedge rubbish that is made in a house in Canberra/Australia by a failed Electronics guru who is regarded by his peers as a "joke" probably why his meters deliver the same results as their owner.

The moral of AFR Instruments is you get an instrument for instruments money, for Toy money you get a Toy.

Save your pennies and buy a proper meter, this is one of the most critical things you will ever measure on a car period, why trust your reading to toys made in someone house or made with flawed technology when for a little more cash you can use the same Gear HKS technology use or what many Automotive OEM companies use to make real performance cars :willy_nilly:

The NEKO AF-700 is a great unit, look it up on www.rhdjapan.com I am the person who made them stock it ;) its the #1 unit in use in Japan by all top end tuners and development companies, for the cost and what you get its cheap in my books.

Well when my engine blew in January I noticed my wideband was getting the 3 dashes on the gauge again. I figured the cable disconnected again but I didn't worry about it until recently because I had so many projects going on. I was incorrect. All the cables are still attached. I swapped in my old sensor and I get 3 dashes with it too. So either both sensors are bad or there is some other problem I'm not seeing. I went through and checked my wiring and I'm not even sure how this thing ever operated to begin with lol. For some reason I had the system ground and heater ground spliced with a wire going to some "control box" (the little black box next to the ECU) and there are no wires coming out of it, so I'm pretty sure neither of those wires have been grounded for the past 3 years, yet the WB was still working. Hmmmm. I've also had the yellow wire hooked up to AN2 (or AN1, I don't remember which) on the Datalogit, and apparently that is the heater wire so I'm pretty sure that's wrong too, but I'm not sure where to hook it up. I'm going to call Innovate again but at this point I'm leaning towards getting something else. I just got my engine back in and started and I don't know what the AFRs are, and even though I'm only breaking it in for the next 1500 miles and not boosting, I still want to know what the numbers are during this time.

Lol. You are wayyyy toooo hardcore.

I know I cannot justify a $1400 AF meter for a $400 car.

Looks nice though.

Unfortunately, this is the difference between FD and FC owners (as a general rule). FC owners like the FC because it is inexpensive and still performs rather well. FC owners usually paid less than $1000 for the car and hesitate to spend more than about $200 at a time on it, while FD owners have money to spend and want nothing but the very best for their car.

I am using the Haltech dual-channel wideband that Ludwig Motorsports gave me a great deal on (one for each rotor). It works very well. Having tried Innovate and AEM in the past, I was tired of unreliability and inaccuracy and was willing to spend a little more. (I paid $319.05 for the 2-channel wideband and two sensors).

Calibration is super-easy, the accuracy matches the $1200 wideband on the dyno within 0.1 AFR and connection only requires 4 wires, power, ground, Wideband 1, Wideband 2. Additional sensors (the only part that fails over time) are also very reasonable in price.

Besides, Chris is a very pleasant guy to work with, he is fair, fast and upfront.

^The only FC owner I can think of off the top of my head that disputes your theory is TTT lol.

I wish I could get a deal on a wideband like that, that wideband specifically would be nice.

I talked to Innovate tech support today and the first thing he said was my grounds were incorrect LOL. I told him I just grounded them to chassis but it worked for 3 years where it was grounded, not sure why. He then told me to disconnect yellow and brown from the Datalogit unless I was logging at the time, and said brown was the only one I'd need to hook up, and to leave yellow unplugged from anything. He said I should have the terminator plug in the 'IN' cable of the LC-1 and wouldn't you know I've lost that so I had to order another one today. He told me that was why I was getting the 3 dashes but I reminded him that this has been working for 3 years hooked up incorrectly like this. He also said I shouldn't have it on switched power, that it should be hooked up to a relay off of ignition power, or battery power, or both, I can't remember which. So until my terminator plug gets here on Friday I have no idea if it will even work. He did say the 3 dashes have nothing to do with the sensor being bad but I remember reading that in their documentation I believe. He said the 3 dashes only means that the LC-1 and XD-16 aren't communicating and that the wiring is bad somehow.

They're just a phone call away. ;) Also have one left new old stock display gauge for the Haltech wideband that is no longer being produced. Was saving it for a personal project but opted for a Racepak dash instead of gauges.

Also now carrying the NGK AFX with the NTK sensor. I like it a lot, besides the rather clunky case/display.

I'm an FB owner now, so I don't count.

Yes, I want to get a wideband to tune my 12a.

And there is no way I'm spending as much on a wideband as I did on the car, plus another car, plus a carb, fuel pump, wheels, interior, oil coolers, MSD box, etc, etc....pretty much everything I have into it doesn't equal what that Neko kit costs.

NGK here I come.

I would never use anything less than a Horiba (or equivalent) personally.

Almost all of the "cheap" widebands out there are designed around the 0-5V lean-burn zirconium UEGO sensor that's prevalent in OEM applications in cars nowadays.
This is what flooded the market recently.
IMNSHO, these are all crap.

A penny costs...a penny.
A Snap-On screwdriver costs a lot more than a penny.
Both can remove or tighten a flat-head screw or bolt.
It depends how much you're willing to spend for the "proper" tools.


-Ted

http://www.ecm-co.com/category.asp?afra

These are better than Horiba. And local to you.

For the record I've spent probably 30k on my FC ROFL also shits alot dearer over here then it is there

Funny, you mention them...
I remember talking to their reps back in 95...96 at a trade show (SEMA).
The pics / brochure looked exactly like the webpage 15 years ago!
The reps were not interested when we mentioned performance and racing as an application.
They were more proficient when it came to OEM applications and emissions (i.e. California smog).
That kinda left a bad impression with me although they do have very nice equipment.


-Ted