Drifting, hellaflush, slammed, tire stretch blog/bash thread.

[RotorDad]

Originally Posted by sofaking

Another point, I watched the video too. At 5 seconds and 18 seconds into the video it showed the tire from the side. If that sidewall is vertical then I'm blind. I can't speak to what the wheels are, because obviously the 370z had aftermarket wheels it would be possible that the Mustang does too. I know there are aftermarket replica wheels for Mustangs I'm unsure if they go larger than 10" wide. I thought they did but I can't find the website now. I'm not saying it's much of a stretch but I can clearly see the sidewall rolling over towards the tread from the wheel to the contact patch.

http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/...-Wheels&page=2.

here's a blog about the video on their site as well.
http://www.mylrs.com/blogs/lrs/archi...-test-car.aspx

I will help you out here's a site above for the SVE wheels used for the 2011 Mustang & you can see for that year the widest are 10's. Using a tire that fits within manufactures recommendations is great. My argument is for those who stretch a tire beyond the range listed form the tire company. Like a 225/45-17 on a 17"x12" is definitely not within spec.

[sofaking]

@Vex, that's the point. There are no hard facts about it, there haven't been any studies to my knowledge that prove this one way or the other. I can only go by my experiences and stretching tires works for me.

When you say it doesn't work and quote joe_blow1 or joe_blow2 it doesn't make any difference how they THINK it should work. I've conceded that I believe there are some stretches that are probably too aggressive to be safe, but that doesn't mean that I believe all tire stretching is unsafe.

@RotorDad nice, on the SVE link. I'm not sure how but the tire looks stretched in the video. Clearly I am mistaken, it must be the design of the tire.

I totally get what you're saying about overstretching. I wouldn't personally do that because my spider sense tells me not to. But I do know the difference between knowing for a fact that it's unsafe and just having a feeling based on my understanding of physics that it doesn't look safe.

Broadly categorizing all tire stretching is the same as broadly categorizing anything, it just doesn't work to take an extreme and base your whole argument on it. Ignorance allows people to broadly categorize all Muslims as extremists because a small percentage do something stupid. It doesn't mean there aren't many hard working, intelligent, kind Muslims in the world... it means some people went off the deep end and now people have to make an assumption about everyone and everything that can be associated that they don't understand.

[vex]

Originally Posted by sofaking

@Vex, that's the point. There are no hard facts about it, there haven't been any studies to my knowledge that prove this one way or the other. I can only go by my experiences and stretching tires works for me.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

When you say it doesn't work and quote joe_blow1 or joe_blow2 it doesn't make any difference how they THINK it should work. I've conceded that I believe there are some stretches that are probably too aggressive to be safe, but that doesn't mean that I believe all tire stretching is unsafe.

I never said it doesn't work. That's just silly. I stated that it's not wise, and would prove detrimental to the tire. I've provided facts on the nature of rubber and the mechanics that will cause issues. Whether or not you believe me is your call.

[RotorDad]

The real problem is this most & I say most of the people who will argue in favor of tire stretching are the ones doing the extreme stretch. Now with that said they normally have no understanding of why & what it's actually doing. Understanding the limits of anything not just a set of tires is lost to these guys & understanding the why is key. I don't go around hating on others cars, do what you want, set the car up in a way that you feel is right. Now on the other hand don't tell others they are wrong for not having the same. (Sofa this not directed towards you). To my knowledge in the drifting aspect underpowered cars tend to use stretched tires to assist in braking the car loose. Pro drivers rely more on traction so they just use really wide wheels to make up for the loss in contact patch. Why not just use a tire with a narrow sidewall & stiffer side section? After looking on numerous drifting sites I have seen this as to be the answer, they want the traction but still want the Appearance of the Hipari style. Note not all Pro drifters tire stretch. Hey man really though to each his own, I have no issues with you except that it seems as if you joined just argue. You are a member here so enjoy the forum, no reason to try to get banned by insulting or disrespecting anyone.

[Kentetsu]

I nominate this to be the most amusing, and most pointless, thread on this forum.








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[josh18_2k]

hey we need something to argue about besides v8 vs rotary

[Pete_89T2]

Originally Posted by josh18_2k

hey we need something to argue about besides v8 vs rotary

Hmmm, the synthetic vs. conventional motor oils in a rotary debate gets folks stirred up pretty good too!

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by Kentetsu

I nominate this to be the most amusing, and most pointless, thread on this forum.

.

You just wait till x-mas, I have a special gift for the forum

Originally Posted by josh18_2k

hey we need something to argue about besides v8 vs rotary

Originally Posted by Pete_89T2

Hmmm, the synthetic vs. conventional motor oils in a rotary debate gets folks stirred up pretty good too!

Let's not forget omp of which band/how much premix

[sofaking]

Originally Posted by vex

Absence of evidence is not evidence of evidence

I have experienced stretched tires. Thus my information seems more "real world" than theory. I find that whenever people discuss how things should work, and how things do work, it's completely different most of the time. Example: If you had never worked on a car before and you grabbed a Chilton's manual and decided to rebuild your motor, you would run into problems that aren't explained that real world experience would solve.

Originally Posted by vex

I never said it doesn't work. That's just silly. I stated that it's not wise, and would prove detrimental to the tire. I've provided facts on the nature of rubber and the mechanics that will cause issues. Whether or not you believe me is your call.

"Could prove detrimental". Based on your lack of evidence you can't say that its a certainty, thus your information is not any more correct than mine.Theory is not proven, that's why there's a special word for it.

As for the tire inflation, I keep the tires at a reasonably high pressure setting of 40psi to maintain that the lack of flex in the elastic region. The thing is that you're arguing that I don't want my tires to act the way I actually want them to act. This is a preference, telling someone how they should prefer something is... useless. Technically I'm sure I'm putting more pressure on the sidewall than the manufacturer recommends, but I don't think it's more than the tire can take. If the tire can hold up to constant flexing from racing a car and being throw into corner after corner, it doesn't seem (to me) like it wouldn't be able to take that pressure as a constant. Otherwise it would be very common for people to have the sidewall blow out of their tires while racing. Obviously this is my personal opinion on the matter, just like you have yours. Without hard technically data that I can't prove my point and you can't prove yours. Your information is speculation and theory. My information is real world testing on my car (that I'm sure can be effected by a million different factors that I can't measure), my experience says it works though without detrimental effects.

@RotorDad I did join just to argue. But that doesn't mean I'm not reasonable. If proven wrong I can admit it. The problem with this argument is that it's just like religion or politics. It can't be proven one way or the other yet people are talking like there's some proof. You can only argue your opinion on these matters, stating them as fact is inaccurate at best. Thanks for the welcome.

[RotorDad]

Well Sofa I was trying to be cool about the whole situation, but since you outright just refuse to listen to others & are set in one direction I see not point in trying to hear your side. Just say nobody can provide proper info on the negative effects of out of spec tire stretching (which in not the case at hand), what info have you provided otherwise? NONE is the answer, you failed terrible getting your point across with that video & tried to throw that up in the faces of the members here. I do thank you for amusing me with your false found victory. Joining a forum just to argue without facts to back you is foolish, not mention immature. There is other areas of the forum to use, this isn't a place to start trouble. I don't like to see people banned, but if you have nothing to add except a headache why not. You say there is no proof we can provide right? I'm sure if you & I were to contact some tire manufactures the outcome would be not to stretch the tires on wheels outside of the specified sizes.

[vex]

Originally Posted by sofaking

I have experienced stretched tires. Thus my information seems more "real world" than theory. I find that whenever people discuss how things should work, and how things do work, it's completely different most of the time. Example: If you had never worked on a car before and you grabbed a Chilton's manual and decided to rebuild your motor, you would run into problems that aren't explained that real world experience would solve.

You seem to be missing the point.

"Could prove detrimental". Based on your lack of evidence you can't say that its a certainty, thus your information is not any more correct than mine.Theory is not proven, that's why there's a special word for it.

Show me where I said could.

As for the tire inflation, I keep the tires at a reasonably high pressure setting of 40psi to maintain that the lack of flex in the elastic region.

You do not mean what you think you mean. Let me give you a little example:

Plastic deformation is never good in such a thing.

The thing is that you're arguing that I don't want my tires to act the way I actually want them to act.

...What?

This is a preference, telling someone how they should prefer something is... useless. Technically I'm sure I'm putting more pressure on the sidewall than the manufacturer recommends, but I don't think it's more than the tire can take.

From whence cometh this surety?

If the tire can hold up to constant flexing from racing a car and being throw into corner after corner, it doesn't seem (to me) like it wouldn't be able to take that pressure as a constant.

Again, apples and oranges. Momentary load in the elastic region will not cause plastic deformation of the tire.

Otherwise it would be very common for people to have the sidewall blow out of their tires while racing. Obviously this is my personal opinion on the matter, just like you have yours.

Mine's not opinion. I'm stating material mechanics.

Without hard technically data that I can't prove my point and you can't prove yours. Your information is speculation and theory.

Actually, mines based on material mechanics which is a proven science. Additionally you can test them yourself. I'll explain how following this.

My information is real world testing on my car (that I'm sure can be effected by a million different factors that I can't measure), my experience says it works though without detrimental effects.

Your experience is limited, and based on false presumptions.

Take a brand new tire prior to mounting. Measure all dimensions and record them. Stretch your tire and mount it. Run it a few times on the track, then remove the wheel and measure again. Are the measurements going to be the same? Depending on the amount of stretch will dictate whether you're in the plastic or elastic region of the material. Do the same with a non-stretched tire, dimensions will be almost if not identical.

If you're stretching the tire outside of manufactures spec and then putting lateral load on the tire I guarantee you will be engaging in the plastic region.

[RotorDad]

I pulled this from Toyo tires website.

1. Failure to select the proper tire and rim. Tire MUST match the width and diameter requirements
of the rim. When mounting truck type radial tires use only wheels approved for radial tires.
2. Failure to inspect both the tire and rim. The rim must be free of cracks, dents, chips, and rust.
The tire must be free of bead damage, cuts and punctures.
3. Failure to follow proper procedures. For proper mounting procedures, consult the RMA's
publication: Care and Service of Automobile and Light Truck Tires (ref: www.rma.org).
4. Exceeding the maximum bead seating pressure of 40 PSI. Be absolutely certain beads are fully
seated before adjusting inflation pressure to the level recommended for vehicle operation.
NEVER put flammable substances in tire/rim assemblies at any time. Never put any flammable
substance into a tire/rim assembly and attempt to ignite to seat the beads.
NOTE TO PROFESSIONAL TIRE INSTALLERS: Exceeding the maximum bead seating pressure. The
tire service person must NEVER INFLATE BEYOND 40 POUNDS PRESSURE TO SEAT BEADS unless
specified by the tire manufacturer! NEVER STAND, LEAN OR REACH OVER THE ASSEMBLY DURING
INFLATION!
Tire Mixing Can Be Dangerous
Driving your vehicle with an improper mix of tire sizes, constructions, and speed ratings can be

Look at #1 & #4

[sofaking]

The part I don't think you guys are understanding is the difference between theory and fact. You're talking in theory, not fact. I'm talking in experience, not fact. I understand that all I can tell you is my experience, and that the only testing is seat of the pants and lack of problems. I agree this doesn't prove anything other than that I haven't experienced problems from the setup.

What I want from either of you is PROOF not theory. Which I don't think you can provide. I.E. even if I test with your technique of stretching the tire and driving around, then doing the same with a non-stretched tire (which isn't a bad idea). I don't have a way to test that the sidewall is:
1) weaker than it was previously
2) weaker than the non-stretched tire after the same miles
3) the strength of the tire is negatively effected enough that it's not strong enough to hold (or degrades at X rate and will not be strong enough to hold after X miles).

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, I'm offering you the opportunity to prove me wrong. I admitted I was wrong when you showed that the wheels were 10" wide in my video. I'm not sure if you want me to jump on one foot in circles or something to make sure it's sincere, but I am willing to admit I'm wrong if proven.

YOU ARE TALKING IN THEORY.

I'm not saying that you can't be right. I'm saying if you want me to admit it, you have to prove it. Otherwise admit you're talking in theory, and you believe your theory is sound. Because that's what's currently happening. Science is theory until proven. An acceptable answer could be as simple as an equation taking into account a given car weight (take an FC), a given tire (pick one that you can find data on), all the forces in question acting on the tire (stretch 215/40-17 on 9.5" wheel, load, pressure, etc.) and tell me how long a given tire will take to explode, deform to failure, break bead, whatever your premise that's supposed to happen. Then do the same math on a non-stretched tire and see if it should fail farther out, and if so how much farther. This would still be theory because it hasn't been tested but if you want to do this without making up numbers that would be a reasonable argument. I personally know I'm not good enough at math to be able to be accurate (mainly the math about the plastic and elastic sections and force exerted on them). I would venture to guess that the rate of the non-stretched tire is WAY beyond the warrantee of the tread life, and the stretched tire would probably be less, but I'd guess still tens of thousands of miles (guess based on experience).

Short version: Admit you're talking in theory or post data. Actual numbers of when the tire will fail.

[sofaking]

Yes, the tire will fail, all tires fail. Tires are designed to fail. But if the estimated point of failure is 60,000 miles... then it's not really a problem. If the estimated point of failure is 10,000 miles... then obviously it is a problem. Meanwhile arguing with no facts about the science of it besides making it "weaker" doesn't prove anything. 1% weaker is nothing, 500% weaker is huge. No numbers are being discussed. If you break a leg after it heals it may be "weaker" but it's still going to last you your whole life. If you hit a home run with a wood baseball bat it will be "weaker" but it doesn't mean it doesn't have 500 more home runs in it. More and less are simple concepts to define larger or smaller amounts. To not define the degree of more and less is useless to argue. Can I have more coffee please? 3 drops is more, an overflowing cup is more. Obviously in that case you just want the cup topped off, but its a pre-determined amount that the person pouring assumes based on experience. If you only want a half a cup you have to specify that amount. We're not talking about amounts, we're talking about more or less.

If that's the case, with my understanding of physics I can say... Yes, I believe you're right. The tire will last less time than would be possible without stretching. But do I agree it's unsafe, or won't last the life of the tread? No.

I'm not trying to be a dick at this point. I'm not attacking either of you, I'm merely clarifying in different ways to see if you can understand what I'm saying. Sometimes when talking to people it requires explaining in different ways what you're trying to convey. I'm not belittling, I'm merely trying to get you to look at the argument from the other side using real world examples.

[RotorDad]

I'm going to say it again if the set up is working for you then it's all good. For the type of driving I do it would not be the optimal set up, so I will not be stretching the tires. Most of the info I have on the subject is from the manufactures themselves not just others opinions. Either way is whatever to me in all honesty, maybe I'm old fashioned & just set in my ways. I will not argue physics, simply I'm not the person for that. I don't care to prove anyone wrong on the forum, this site is a good way to obtain info, share info & make some friends. Enjoy your Xmas man & maybe share your build in the drifting section of this forum.