800+rwhp 13B PP

[forcefed7]

Originally Posted by RETed

Actually, the video label says semi-PP, so it's not a full PP...

Am I the only one disappointed with the *torque* graph?
Although the X-axis is not labelled in RPM's, if we assume 4.10 rear end, standard gearing on a stock FD trans...looks like 5th gear pull?

Assuming tires are close to stock rolling diameter...
2,000 = 50mph
3,000 = 75mph
4,000 = 100mph
(Wow, works out nice for 25mph per 1,000RPM's?)
5,000 = 125mph
6,000 = 150mph
7,000 = 175mph
8,000 = 200mph

Assuming + or - 500RPM's due to different tire size, etc...
Peak torque ~4,800RPM?
Redline ~7,100RPM?

Torque drop from peak torque to redline just about 100 lb-ft???
Something doesn't jive...
With the semi-PP, I would think the peak torque would be a lot higher?
Also, the torque drop wouldn't be as drastic with the semi-PP?
20% drop in torque over 30% of it's rev range (actually more like 50% over it's usable rev range) is a lot to me...

Am I way off base here???


-Ted

Hey Ted,

The torque curve looks strange because of two things.

-Tire/clutch slippage when the vehicle comes into boost

-Boost dropping off at higher rpms.

Dyno runs were done in 4th gear using a stock FD trans. Tire circumference is about 79"

The graph in the middle shows calculated gear ratio, this line is fairly straight if there is no slippage. Peak torque output is actually in the 530-560 range.

The bottom graph is the boost, near the end of the run the boost is only about 28psi. The wastegate being a 66mm unit with a 12-13 psi spring has a lot of surface area, and once you get up in the higher revs/power output the exhaust back pressure starts to go a little over 1:1 and pushes the valve open, limiting the boost.

If you were to calculate the average acceleration rate (now that you know the engine rpm) I don't think you'd be too disappointed

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by forcefed7

Hey Ted,

The torque curve looks strange because of two things.

-Tire/clutch slippage when the vehicle comes into boost

-Boost dropping off at higher rpms.

Dyno runs were done in 4th gear using a stock FD trans. Tire circumference is about 79"

The graph in the middle shows calculated gear ratio, this line is fairly straight if there is no slippage. Peak torque output is actually in the 530-560 range.

The bottom graph is the boost, near the end of the run the boost is only about 28psi. The wastegate being a 66mm unit with a 12-13 psi spring has a lot of surface area, and once you get up in the higher revs/power output the exhaust back pressure starts to go a little over 1:1 and pushes the valve open, limiting the boost.

If you were to calculate the average acceleration rate (now that you know the engine rpm) I don't think you'd be too disappointed

On the road in the real world with quick transient conditions that thing would not develop full boost till 6k rpm or more in 2nd or 3rd gears especially, so far as 4k to 5k forget it.

It's a really nice set up for high power dyno competitions though

If you send me the vehicle run weight along with a VBOX .vbo or .dbn file, I'll see what power it makes on the street when you do an acceleration test with it, with that gearing though to do 100kmh to 200kmh you will probably be using 2nd and 3rd gears at a guess, rather than 3rd and 4th like we do.

[forcefed7]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

On the road in the real world with quick transient conditions that thing would not develop full boost till 6k rpm or more in 2nd or 3rd gears especially, so far as 4k to 5k forget it.

It's a really nice set up for high power dyno competitions though

If you send me the vehicle run weight along with a VBOX .vbo or .dbn file, I'll see what power it makes on the street when you do an acceleration test with it, with that gearing though to do 100kmh to 200kmh you will probably be using 2nd and 3rd gears at a guess, rather than 3rd and 4th like we do.

It's not as "laggy" as you might think, but even if it didn't make full boost until 6k it still has a usable rev range of another 4800rpm. Assuming grip is equal, 2nd and 3rd gear will higher acceleration rates. Unfortunately I don't own a VBOX to be able to send you a log file.

You never commented on what you consider to be acceptable torque output at 5-5.5k and you term "high engine rpm"

[RICE RACING]

Race Logic Drift Box or Performance Box are very cheap entry point to do some real world testing, you should buy one and test that car for us

[forcefed7]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

Race Logic Drift Box or Performance Box are very cheap entry point to do some real world testing, you should buy one and test that car for us

Cheap is relative, but that's besides the point. I have a chassis dyno that offers me the ability to have a controlled, repeatable, safe environment to perform testing. Constant, repeatable data, that almost takes the operator completely out of the equation. Having this type of testing equipment is a bit more practical for me.

I am a fan of Race Logic products, I've just never had a need that I could justify the cost.

[RICE RACING]

150mph in 1/4 mile????

For less than 1k you can by a Drift box or even less for a Performance box, with nearly 900bhp 13B on tap you would be mad to not invest in one of these and show everyone just how fast that bad boy is out in the real world.

So you should list up some detailed specs on it for everyone to drool over

[RICE RACING]

So how long does this motor last using 10,000+rpm? what does the old man use it for? (dyno competitions only?)

I probably would not recommend trying to accelerate in 2nd or 3rd gear unless you want to warranty his gearbox hahaha

I'm sure we could muster up enough donations off this forums membership to buy PFS a basic cheap VBOX so you could post up some acceleration figures from this bad boy

[forcefed7]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

150mph in 1/4 mile????

For less than 1k you can by a Drift box or even less for a Performance box, with nearly 900bhp 13B on tap you would be mad to not invest in one of these and show everyone just how fast that bad boy is out in the real world.

So you should list up some detailed specs on it for everyone to drool over

Call me mad, but I'd rather have the 1k in my pocket instead sitting on the shelf with everybody and their brother wanting to "borrow" it.

Detail specs? What do you want to know?

It's doubtful I'll be able to provide you with anything insightful or to your satisfaction, but I can try.

[RETed]

Originally Posted by forcefed7

The torque curve looks strange because of two things.

-Tire/clutch slippage when the vehicle comes into boost

-Boost dropping off at higher rpms.

Hey, appreciate offering more information on this set-up!

The assumption was that nothing was slipping and that 100% (or close to it) of the power was getting to the dyno...
I give you credit that the graph is really smooth for stuff slipping during the run!
The smooth graph was the reason why I assumed there were no problem...
Hell, even watching the vid, I didn't see no obvious signs of slipage...

Yeah, the power drop had me scratching my head...
I thought for a split second that maybe the turbo (turbine) was too small but dismissed it cause of the total power output.
Hadn't thought that of the wastegate not being able to hold the pressure all the way through - 66mm (Tial?) yikes!

My problem was that I did not have sound when I viewed the video...DOH.
When I tried to punch in the gear ratios for a 4th gear 1:1, it was way over stock redline...another DOH.
With the graph shifted over like that, now the graph makes more sense.

I've got one question, if you don't mind...
How is your intake system designed?
Stock TB with modified stock intake manifold?
Single aftermarket TB with custom runners with everything running through it?
Semi-PP's running through it's own dedicated TB system?


-Ted

[forcefed7]

Originally Posted by RETed

Hey, appreciate offering more information on this set-up!

The assumption was that nothing was slipping and that 100% (or close to it) of the power was getting to the dyno...
I give you credit that the graph is really smooth for stuff slipping during the run!
The smooth graph was the reason why I assumed there were no problem...
Hell, even watching the vid, I didn't see no obvious signs of slipage...

Yeah, the power drop had me scratching my head...
I thought for a split second that maybe the turbo (turbine) was too small but dismissed it cause of the total power output.
Hadn't thought that of the wastegate not being able to hold the pressure all the way through - 66mm (Tial?) yikes!

My problem was that I did not have sound when I viewed the video...DOH.
When I tried to punch in the gear ratios for a 4th gear 1:1, it was way over stock redline...another DOH.
With the graph shifted over like that, now the graph makes more sense.

I've got one question, if you don't mind...
How is your intake system designed?
Stock TB with modified stock intake manifold?
Single aftermarket TB with custom runners with everything running through it?
Semi-PP's running through it's own dedicated TB system?


-Ted

Hi Ted,
The wastegate is a Precision 66mm. When I first started the tuning I had softer springs in it, and it was capable keeping the boost as low as 8psi.

The intake manifold and throttle body is from Xtreme Rotary. The throttle body has four throttle plates, with the primary plates work off of a progressive linkage design. Drivablity is excellent. I did have to make some changes to it, but overall great product.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by forcefed7

Hi Ted,
The wastegate is a Precision 66mm. When I first started the tuning I had softer springs in it, and it was capable keeping the boost as low as 8psi.

The intake manifold and throttle body is from Xtreme Rotary. The throttle body has four throttle plates, with the primary plates work off of a progressive linkage design. Drivablity is excellent. I did have to make some changes to it, but overall great product.

On these similar 1000bhp 13B set up's I run twin 44mm waste gates to get over the problem you are facing now. Minimum spring pressure you can get away with on 350kpa abs and above is 1.4bar.

Single large WG will never work correctly with a "lower" base spring as you are finding out.

[RICE RACING]

All pics are here for those interested > http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i2...k/Dads%20FD3S/

[forcefed7]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

Single large WG will never work correctly with a "lower" base spring as you are finding out.

CO2 could address this If the goal was to make more power we would've just swapped to a stiffer wastegate spring.

[RICE RACING]

I'm not so sure why the shyness on sharing with people here what AFR and timing you use????

Specifically 8k to 10krpm @ 350kpa abs (or slightly below as your boost does not hold).

We both know the values, hell I even provided the knowledge for a 800+rwhp 12A! running a GT45R turbo using 36psi gauge boost, using C16 fuel only (and that is on our dyno's that read lower than yours) car trapped 167mph in a RX3 with a 28x9 tire. Only used 9000rpm though, bridge ported with 13B-RE inlet manifold and adapter plate.

I have a couple of customers who run C16 at similar mph and similar rwhp figures on just C16 but with 13B's and all are water injected to make the steel apex seals reliable long term.

AFR's in the 10's Timing in the single digits.

[RICE RACING]

What power have you made on 93 octane "true street set up" with that combination?