Dyno?

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

I'm not.... seriously... too many people don't monitor EGT's or have a single probe in the DP.... worthless....

MMMM That would Include me, I will look into getting some sort of EGT sensor fitted as this is also something that i have not come across and it interests me what my EGT is (i imagine running rich it should be quite low??) Just some thing else to add to the "To Do" list

[Grizzly]

Class, just Noticed i've put this in the wrong section. Sorry.

What can you say these Noobs coming on your Forum messing it up

[TitaniumTT]

Nothing, we enjoy new people on this forum as long as they don't kick the bee hive with the intention of seeing the freenzy

The AFR's dropping like that would account for the loss of power.

How much boost are you running? 10.7:1 is way WAY toooooo rich unless it's some insane amount of boost and meth injection. Personally, on pump, I run 12.5:1 up to 10psi... but that's me and my car. I don't tune cars that way.

[Grizzly]

The car was set up to 1.1bar of Boost and it does run 50/50 Meth Water mix but through a 0.6mm Jet by the Throttles and comes on at 0.7 bar, the only thing i can say is the Meth/Water mix is sending it rich maybe? Could it have been set like this to keep it on the rich side so airing on the side of Caution?

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

Hi all.

I have recently had the Fd set up and when i received the Print out i noticed the Torque Curve sort of Drops off between 4500 and 5500 then Picks up again as the revs increase.



I am not too clued up on Dyno print outs but from what i have seen this looks like i have an issue or a Fault as it still does it on lower boost (its not very clear but big red line is 1 bar and just under it is a Yellow line which is 0.8 bar the lower lines where on a Different IC that was holding it back but the dip is still there)

A Basic Mod list:

PFC with Profec B2 Boost controller
Mild Ported Motor with 3mm seals
Hybrid 60-1 turbo (.96 hot side), HKS Divided manifold, 50mm WG
3" exhaust (decat)
Stock Primary Injectors and 1600cc secondary’s, Aeromoive FPR, 044 Pump
WI Injection ( 50/50 .6mm jet by the Throttles)
HKS Twin Power (10's and 11's Plugs)
Blitz FMIC

I was told by the Dyno operator that the dip was due to poor gas flow through the Manifold, but i have read that if the manifold had reached its peak flow the Torque wouldn't climb anymore?

Can anyone enlighten me as this is an Area i really know little about?

Thanks

The dip you see it totally in correlation with your Water/Methanol system kicking in at that point.

You do not need such a system at all (not even up to 1.3 bar boost pressure on T4 frame turbo's) as correct fuel richness levels and spark advance will suffice any effects towards detonation.

To run water injection without the associated dips you need to have the engine fully mapped for one or the other, you can not run your engine optimized for one and then expect it to run in another way with water injection you will always have non optimal result.

For a PFC or any other basic system you make the choice which way you want to go.
If you run a Life Racing, Syvec, or Motec ECU etc then you can have multiple strategies and different maps that all are tuned to allow different configurations for fueling and ignition mapping, and switch it as you see fit.

All of this is explained in great detail in my thread in members section or on the Aquamist site (only free source worth reading on the topic of water injection).

[RICE RACING]

http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm

^ The only real legitimate source for rotary turbo water injection knowledge, that is proven and achieved by others and not touch typed on your local trashy forum by some nobody pony tailed or plastic trophy time attack racer lol ..................

Dyno's of engines properly set up to run water injection (all forms). No dips



472rearhubhp 1.3 bar Water Injected



550rearhubhp 1.7 bar Water Injected



558rearwheelhp ~1.7bar Water Injected

Some examples for you

[RICE RACING]

It is very common if you are dealing with a newbie or some wannabe cock smoker who is just reciting part information from the things I was speaking about 10+ years ago that you will get an inferior result.

Water Injection needs correct calibration, and proper system set up for supporting engine ancillaries, without the "whole package" of both parts and knowledge you will never get the full benefit of it and in many cases you will make you car package worse by applying it where it is not even needed in the first place

[RICE RACING]

That rubbish your duyo operator told you is just that!

If he had any idea he would have logged your boost pressure to wheel speed and engine rpm, like this...........



or



or




Then he could pass on a nugget of information like he did lol......... based off some facts! not some bullshit comment based off his own ignorance and lack of basic knowledge!

I have NEVER EVER seen any rotary manifold exhaust or intake on a turbo based motor cause that effect!.... I can only provide you with PROOF! not some bullshit excuse like he told you.

On a positive note what I would suggest to you to narrow down the root cause is do some basic mapping of things like intake boost pressure trace and air fuel ratio to further narrow down root causes of your particular situation/problem.

My quick opinion is it is due to the fact of your WM system and poor calibration to suit it.

[RICE RACING]

I watched it again and its not to do with boost as it is smooth enough, air to fuel ratio is at that 10.2 region where the graph is softest (step)... I'd say without seeing the 0.8bar runs that it is also running too much excess fuel at that point as well (around 5k rpm) then as the mixture gets to that magic 10.8+ region it steps up in power.

I'd be interested to see with a flat AFR ratio if that did not cure your stepped power band.

I know in my own test car that even with a welders ignition that there is massive differences of power once you get over this "soft power" zone *excessive fuel richness*........ though in some applications you need that to ward off detonation.

At your level of power with also with water meth it needs not be at 10.3:1 region, so I would get them to address that and see if that fixes the problem of low power at that rich zone in the mapping.

Peter

[Grizzly]

Unfortunately this is the Only other Info i got from the session. (Excuse the dumb coments on the Video)



HP Map, you can see the step between 4500-5500. Its a PITA as the 0.8 bar line is in yellow and is hard to see (thats why i took a pic of it rather than scan as it doesn't show up at all) if it helps the 0.8bar peaks at 380hp at 6500rpm.

[Grizzly]

I understand its hard to Diagnose a car from the other side of the Planet but would you say there is a problem that wants looking into or am i just being paranoid? if it was WI i would proberly leave it but i don't like the idea there could be some thing failing thats been overlooked?

[RICE RACING]

Feel free to get some comments from the others here, but without seeing more information I say it lines up with the fuel mixture at those points being a contributing factor....... but like you say it is hard to diagnose from here.

[RETed]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

Feel free to get some comments from the others here, but without seeing more information I say it lines up with the fuel mixture at those points being a contributing factor....... but like you say it is hard to diagnose from here.

I have to agree...

With my experience and what most people tend to do...
They try to run all "10's" across the board when it comes to AFR, just because they are paranoid of hurting something.
I tend to run my AFR's a tad leaner in those low RPM areas, cause the engine is still picking up steam.
Like I said before, detonation and engine damage is more likely to happen around peak torque.
I don't worry too much outside of + / - 1,000RPM's of the peak torque curve.
Just to pick up some responsiveness from the engine, I run the low RPM's areas prior to peak torque a little bit leaner and more aggressive on the total ignition advance.
Like I said before also, I keep adjusting the maps until the power lines stop climbing on the dyno - some people can't grasp this basic concept of tuning.
I have argued with idiots who claim: "oh, I can't go leaner than 10.5 AFR's because this other (questionable) tuner told me not to." [DOH!]
I have run some customer's cars in the 4kRPM region as lean as 11.0 - 11.5 AFR's on a dyno wideband, and the engine is happy.
(Keep in mind that every engine in each unique vehicle will be slightly different [in engine VE] no matter how much you try to duplicate a set-up, and this is why you need to tune each individually and maps will never be identical.)


-Ted