who makes a good wideband?

[speedjunkie]

Well when my engine blew in January I noticed my wideband was getting the 3 dashes on the gauge again. I figured the cable disconnected again but I didn't worry about it until recently because I had so many projects going on. I was incorrect. All the cables are still attached. I swapped in my old sensor and I get 3 dashes with it too. So either both sensors are bad or there is some other problem I'm not seeing. I went through and checked my wiring and I'm not even sure how this thing ever operated to begin with lol. For some reason I had the system ground and heater ground spliced with a wire going to some "control box" (the little black box next to the ECU) and there are no wires coming out of it, so I'm pretty sure neither of those wires have been grounded for the past 3 years, yet the WB was still working. Hmmmm. I've also had the yellow wire hooked up to AN2 (or AN1, I don't remember which) on the Datalogit, and apparently that is the heater wire so I'm pretty sure that's wrong too, but I'm not sure where to hook it up. I'm going to call Innovate again but at this point I'm leaning towards getting something else. I just got my engine back in and started and I don't know what the AFRs are, and even though I'm only breaking it in for the next 1500 miles and not boosting, I still want to know what the numbers are during this time.

[djmtsu]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

The NEKO AF-700 is a great unit, look it up on www.rhdjapan.com I am the person who made them stock it its the #1 unit in use in Japan by all top end tuners and development companies, for the cost and what you get its cheap in my books.

Lol. You are wayyyy toooo hardcore.

I know I cannot justify a $1400 AF meter for a $400 car.

Looks nice though.

[NoDOHC]

Originally Posted by djmtsu

Lol. You are wayyyy toooo hardcore.

I know I cannot justify a $1400 AF meter for a $400 car.

Looks nice though.

Unfortunately, this is the difference between FD and FC owners (as a general rule). FC owners like the FC because it is inexpensive and still performs rather well. FC owners usually paid less than $1000 for the car and hesitate to spend more than about $200 at a time on it, while FD owners have money to spend and want nothing but the very best for their car.

I am using the Haltech dual-channel wideband that Ludwig Motorsports gave me a great deal on (one for each rotor). It works very well. Having tried Innovate and AEM in the past, I was tired of unreliability and inaccuracy and was willing to spend a little more. (I paid $319.05 for the 2-channel wideband and two sensors).

Calibration is super-easy, the accuracy matches the $1200 wideband on the dyno within 0.1 AFR and connection only requires 4 wires, power, ground, Wideband 1, Wideband 2. Additional sensors (the only part that fails over time) are also very reasonable in price.

Besides, Chris is a very pleasant guy to work with, he is fair, fast and upfront.

[speedjunkie]

^The only FC owner I can think of off the top of my head that disputes your theory is TTT lol.

I wish I could get a deal on a wideband like that, that wideband specifically would be nice.

I talked to Innovate tech support today and the first thing he said was my grounds were incorrect LOL. I told him I just grounded them to chassis but it worked for 3 years where it was grounded, not sure why. He then told me to disconnect yellow and brown from the Datalogit unless I was logging at the time, and said brown was the only one I'd need to hook up, and to leave yellow unplugged from anything. He said I should have the terminator plug in the 'IN' cable of the LC-1 and wouldn't you know I've lost that so I had to order another one today. He told me that was why I was getting the 3 dashes but I reminded him that this has been working for 3 years hooked up incorrectly like this. He also said I shouldn't have it on switched power, that it should be hooked up to a relay off of ignition power, or battery power, or both, I can't remember which. So until my terminator plug gets here on Friday I have no idea if it will even work. He did say the 3 dashes have nothing to do with the sensor being bad but I remember reading that in their documentation I believe. He said the 3 dashes only means that the LC-1 and XD-16 aren't communicating and that the wiring is bad somehow.

[C. Ludwig]

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

I wish I could get a deal on a wideband like that, that wideband specifically would be nice.

They're just a phone call away. Also have one left new old stock display gauge for the Haltech wideband that is no longer being produced. Was saving it for a personal project but opted for a Racepak dash instead of gauges.

Also now carrying the NGK AFX with the NTK sensor. I like it a lot, besides the rather clunky case/display.

[djmtsu]

Originally Posted by NoDOHC

Unfortunately, this is the difference between FD and FC owners (as a general rule).

I'm an FB owner now, so I don't count.

Yes, I want to get a wideband to tune my 12a.

And there is no way I'm spending as much on a wideband as I did on the car, plus another car, plus a carb, fuel pump, wheels, interior, oil coolers, MSD box, etc, etc....pretty much everything I have into it doesn't equal what that Neko kit costs.

NGK here I come.

[RETed]

I would never use anything less than a Horiba (or equivalent) personally.

Almost all of the "cheap" widebands out there are designed around the 0-5V lean-burn zirconium UEGO sensor that's prevalent in OEM applications in cars nowadays.
This is what flooded the market recently.
IMNSHO, these are all crap.

A penny costs...a penny.
A Snap-On screwdriver costs a lot more than a penny.
Both can remove or tighten a flat-head screw or bolt.
It depends how much you're willing to spend for the "proper" tools.


-Ted

[RICE RACING]

http://www.ecm-co.com/category.asp?afra

These are better than Horiba. And local to you.

[Mazdabater]

For the record I've spent probably 30k on my FC ROFL also shits alot dearer over here then it is there

[RETed]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

http://www.ecm-co.com/category.asp?afra

These are better than Horiba. And local to you.

Funny, you mention them...
I remember talking to their reps back in 95...96 at a trade show (SEMA).
The pics / brochure looked exactly like the webpage 15 years ago!
The reps were not interested when we mentioned performance and racing as an application.
They were more proficient when it came to OEM applications and emissions (i.e. California smog).
That kinda left a bad impression with me although they do have very nice equipment.


-Ted

[djmtsu]

Well then I guess I should go out and by a lift, since I need to bleed my brakes.

These jackstands are not going to cut it.

[vex]

This thread makes me laugh.

[speedjunkie]

Well it looks like the terminator plug did solve my problems, for now at least lol.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by RETed

Funny, you mention them...
I remember talking to their reps back in 95...96 at a trade show (SEMA).
The pics / brochure looked exactly like the webpage 15 years ago!
The reps were not interested when we mentioned performance and racing as an application.
They were more proficient when it came to OEM applications and emissions (i.e. California smog).
That kinda left a bad impression with me although they do have very nice equipment.


-Ted

I keep going on and on like a broken record, but the Autronic B Model is actually far more widely used than any of those other higher priced ones amount OEM lab's and racers, its got features that even the Horiba and ECM do not have and its far more applicable to us.

I still use mine on jobs where the customer has ca$h, for the other ghetto work I use the same as HKS do and that is the Neko AF700 (a great portable unit, and ONLY one with hand calibrated individual sensors, only other people who do this are McLaren Electronics *yes the F1 team! sparks division*).

And for super ghetto work I used to use my Innovate LM-1 but I gave it away for free to a person who had no idea about AFR toys, funnily enough he found the exact same "glitches" as Innovate have been shitting on and on about since Klause first invented His "system" & "lean misfire excuses" we then fitted up the Autronic and the glitches and lean misfires went away LOL!

Moral is if you want a toy you buy a toy if you want a piece of scientific grade equipment you pay the money, you long forget how much you paid when an item works and is correct. YOU WILL NEVER FORGET HOW MUCH OF A TOTAL PIECE OF SHIT that toy AFR gauge is REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH MONEY YOU SAVED INITIALLY.

[j9fd3s]

Originally Posted by sen2two

Does anyone have a problem with the actual Innovate set-up that dosnt involve the sensor?

Can you upgrade any one of the above listed "better" sensors to the Innovate set-up?

yes. mine likes to pop one of the capacitors on the board, they actually melt.

AFIK you have to use the bosch sensor (which is a slow POS, designed to go ON a slow POS), the calibrations are different.

IMO its kind of ok, cause i was totally falling into the "the wideband must read a certain number!" trap, instead of looking for how well the engine runs, or power....

for example i put the WB on the PP just to make sure it wasn't too lean, WB said mid 11's, which is much richer than the 13.2 everyone throws out, but the engine LOVED IT. plugs didn't look dark either...

oh and it does help that a weber IDA is fuel only, and its only got about a 5x5 map, with fixed rpm points and it just interpolates between cells