who makes a good wideband? - Page 2

RETed · 04-07-2011, 10:12 PM

I would never use anything less than a Horiba (or equivalent) personally.

Almost all of the "cheap" widebands out there are designed around the 0-5V lean-burn zirconium UEGO sensor that's prevalent in OEM applications in cars nowadays.
This is what flooded the market recently.
IMNSHO, these are all crap.

A penny costs...a penny.
A Snap-On screwdriver costs a lot more than a penny.
Both can remove or tighten a flat-head screw or bolt.
It depends how much you're willing to spend for the "proper" tools.

-Ted

RICE RACING · 04-07-2011, 11:11 PM

http://www.ecm-co.com/category.asp?afra

These are better than Horiba. And local to you.

RETed · 04-08-2011, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

http://www.ecm-co.com/category.asp?afra

These are better than Horiba. And local to you.

Funny, you mention them...
I remember talking to their reps back in 95...96 at a trade show (SEMA).
The pics / brochure looked exactly like the webpage 15 years ago!
The reps were not interested when we mentioned performance and racing as an application.
They were more proficient when it came to OEM applications and emissions (i.e. California smog).
That kinda left a bad impression with me although they do have very nice equipment.

-Ted

RICE RACING · 04-08-2011, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RETed

Funny, you mention them...
I remember talking to their reps back in 95...96 at a trade show (SEMA).
The pics / brochure looked exactly like the webpage 15 years ago!
The reps were not interested when we mentioned performance and racing as an application.
They were more proficient when it came to OEM applications and emissions (i.e. California smog).
That kinda left a bad impression with me although they do have very nice equipment.

-Ted

I keep going on and on like a broken record, but the Autronic B Model is actually far more widely used than any of those other higher priced ones amount OEM lab's and racers, its got features that even the Horiba and ECM do not have and its far more applicable to us.

I still use mine on jobs where the customer has ca$h, for the other ghetto work I use the same as HKS do and that is the Neko AF700 (a great portable unit, and ONLY one with hand calibrated individual sensors, only other people who do this are McLaren Electronics *yes the F1 team! sparks division*).

And for super ghetto work I used to use my Innovate LM-1

but I gave it away for free to a person who had no idea about AFR toys, funnily enough he found the exact same "glitches" as Innovate have been shitting on and on about since Klause first invented His "system" & "lean misfire excuses" we then fitted up the Autronic and the glitches and lean misfires went away LOL!

Moral is if you want a toy you buy a toy if you want a piece of scientific grade equipment you pay the money, you long forget how much you paid when an item works and is correct. YOU WILL NEVER FORGET HOW MUCH OF A TOTAL PIECE OF SHIT that toy AFR gauge is REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH MONEY YOU SAVED INITIALLY.

RotorDad · 08-08-2010, 08:37 PM

I have the Innovative which I'm happy with. A few friends swear by the PLX & the Zetronics, none of them like the AEM.

Nev · 08-23-2010, 07:45 PM

i have an aem, has worked great for almost 3 years

RotorDad · 08-24-2010, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nev

i have an aem, has worked great for almost 3 years

Works for some & doesn't for others!

dudemaaan · 08-24-2010, 09:42 AM

I run the innovate lc1 and have had no problems with it in almost 3 years now. Sensor life is usually shortened if you have it too close to the turbo. Best to have it just before the midpipe.

I used to avoid AEM electronics after a bad experience with their Pnp ecu, but that was 7 years ago and I hear they are better now.

This wideband of theirs looks pretty cool.

http://www.wannaspeed.com/index.php?...roducts_id=328

Can connect over wifi, displays on iphone, itouch, android, and storm 2, has 5v output for dataloging, can connect to external gauge, and probably one of the coolest things I had never seen before in a wideband controller is dual EGT probe inputs for logging EGT's along with AFR's.

730RWHP12A · 08-24-2010, 07:15 PM

AEM, most bang for your buck!

NoDOHC · 08-24-2010, 09:20 PM

The reason that I went with an Innovate the second time, rather than buying another AEM (which has been a good product) was the ability to calibrate and the corresponding accuracy.

The Innovate gives the opportunity to calibrate the wideband frequently in free air to compensate for the long-term degradation in the actual wideband sensor.

The AEM wideband (which can't be re-calibrated) can be off by up to 0.5 AFR after years of use, which could mean death to a closely-tuned turbo car. I think this is the reason that many people do not like them.

At the same time, on an NA car the AEM is fine because if you shoot for 13.2:1 by the wideband, you are probably reasonably close to peak power (error range of 12.7:1 to 13.7:1, which all makes good power). Running a NA engine lean of 13.4:1 (peak power) won't hurt it, you will just lose power (no valves to burn or pistons to melt).

AnthonyNYC · 10-18-2010, 01:33 AM

A while back I bought the Innovate Wideband kit with the Bosch sensor. I like it a lot, it worked well. I mounted it too close to the turbo and started to get error codes saying it was too close. I then moved it but it was too late, I damaged the sensor. Let's call this sensor number 1. Keep in mind the time to jack the car up, take the downpipe off, tap a new hole, take to shop to get the new bung welded on etc.....

So I go out and get a new sensor. Now this worked great. I mounted it on the downpipe but closer to the midpipe. Things were great. Everyday I drive the car to and from work and loved the new sensor. All was good. I now needed to tune the car and added some C16 and after a short time it started reading lean and I added more fuel until the sensor was toast, let's call this sensor number 2.

So I went on the Innovate forum and posted about it and was told it should be good up to 500 hours. So I went out and bought another bosch sensor but this time did not use it and just sold the unit with a brand new sensor. So I started doing some more research, more can add to this or correct me if I am wrong anywhere.

Most of the 'cheaper' wideband kits come with the Bosch sensor, the LSU4.2 sensor is most common. These sensors cost anywhere from $50-$90. These are great sensors if you are not going to be using leaded fuel. They do not tolerate heat very well and should be mounted a little further away. Making a copper heat sink will help as well.

Now, the better kits come with the NTK sensors. These sensors are way more durable and can tolerate heat very very well. These sensors cost anywhere from $250-300 just for the sensor alone, not the kit. There are 2 NTK sensors. There is an old school L1H1 and a newer L2H2. The L1H1 is no longer in production. I called a few manufactorers of wideband and asked about the various sensors, they all referred to the NTK L1H1 sensor as "bulletproof"
These L1H1 sensor costs more than the L2H2, about $50 more.

The L2H2 is also a great sensor and replaced the L1H1. If you are looking to get a wideband kit and plan on running leaded fuel, you should try to get a kit that uses an NTK sensor.

I ended up getting the FJO Wideband Kit with the older L1H1 setup. Others have been using this setup for years with no issues. I absolutely love it. I have gone through about 10 drums of C16 in the past few months and the sensor is holding up well. I have the sensor mounted in the same spot the Bosch was mounted in that burnt up. I drive the car daily (when it was warm) and the sensor is holding up excellent and works very very well.

The extra cost of any kits with the NTK sensor is well worth it in the long run if you run leaded fuel. The Innovate Kit cost me $400 when it first came out with the LC1. 2 sensors went bad which were $75 each. Total cost is $550 but hours of trying to get it right. The FJO kit or other kits using the NTK L2H2 cost roughly $650-$800 but will work well right out of the box.

To take the sensors up one more notch up is the NTK sensor that is hand balanced from the factory. (thanks Enzo250 for this info) These sensors are roughly $800-$1000 and used by more experienced tuners.

So in the end before buying a wideband look at the environment it will spend the most time in. If you are going to be using Leaded fuel,even sometimes, you might want to consider the NTK sensors. If you are going to be running pump gas all the time, then the Bosch sensors are ok for you.

speedjunkie · 10-21-2010, 12:18 AM

I've been using Innovate LC-1/XD-16 for a couple years with no problems. I've only been on the dyno a couple times with it but the sensor held up fine, and I haven't been using a heat sink or doing free-air calibrations (mostly because I forgot all about it lol), I would just turn it on and go. My sensor is mounted halfway in my midpipe, right under my shifter hole. It just quit working the other day, but that may be because when I had the tranny out I just let the midpipe hang by the sensor lol. Not sure though.

speedjunkie · 12-08-2010, 04:34 PM

OK, well I'm slowly joining the Inno-hate club. I ordered a new sensor (just the Bosch style since I won't be running leaded fuel, it came out to about $90 shipped from them) and I'm getting the same problems as the last one, three dashes, which from what I've read indicates no reading from the sensor. I've called about 5 times today and it's like no one is working there anymore. I'm pretty pissed off at this point. I'm looking at FJO and PLX, I've never checked out Tech Edge. Any others (not AEM)?

Waffles · 12-15-2010, 09:42 PM

I used an AEM to tune a couple turbo hondas, and it got the job done, but I prefer the Innovate LC-1.

rx71king · 12-15-2010, 11:44 PM

i have bin using fast wideband works great....i like that it has a cigaratte lighter plug.

04-07-2011, 11:11 PM	#2
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	http://www.ecm-co.com/category.asp?afra These are better than Horiba. And local to you. __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration

08-08-2010, 08:37 PM	#5
RotorDad Big Ugly Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Fredericksburg, Va Posts: 591 Rep Power: 17	I have the Innovative which I'm happy with. A few friends swear by the PLX & the Zetronics, none of them like the AEM. __________________ *Boosted Big Body On 335's* PS3 ID: Rotordad 1986 Mazda RX7 GXL - Street ported 13BT, Haltech, 62mm, ect. 2006 MazdaSpeed 6 - Eagle, Wiseco, Cobb, ect.

08-24-2010, 09:42 AM	#8
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX Posts: 335 Rep Power: 18	I run the innovate lc1 and have had no problems with it in almost 3 years now. Sensor life is usually shortened if you have it too close to the turbo. Best to have it just before the midpipe. I used to avoid AEM electronics after a bad experience with their Pnp ecu, but that was 7 years ago and I hear they are better now. This wideband of theirs looks pretty cool. http://www.wannaspeed.com/index.php?...roducts_id=328 Can connect over wifi, displays on iphone, itouch, android, and storm 2, has 5v output for dataloging, can connect to external gauge, and probably one of the coolest things I had never seen before in a wideband controller is dual EGT probe inputs for logging EGT's along with AFR's. __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap! Last edited by dudemaaan; 08-24-2010 at 09:47 AM.

08-24-2010, 07:15 PM	#9
730RWHP12A Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: chatsworth, california Posts: 349 Rep Power: 18	AEM, most bang for your buck! __________________ rotaryshack.com

08-24-2010, 09:20 PM	#10
NoDOHC The quest for more torque Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sheboygan, Wisconsin Posts: 855 Rep Power: 17	The reason that I went with an Innovate the second time, rather than buying another AEM (which has been a good product) was the ability to calibrate and the corresponding accuracy. The Innovate gives the opportunity to calibrate the wideband frequently in free air to compensate for the long-term degradation in the actual wideband sensor. The AEM wideband (which can't be re-calibrated) can be off by up to 0.5 AFR after years of use, which could mean death to a closely-tuned turbo car. I think this is the reason that many people do not like them. At the same time, on an NA car the AEM is fine because if you shoot for 13.2:1 by the wideband, you are probably reasonably close to peak power (error range of 12.7:1 to 13.7:1, which all makes good power). Running a NA engine lean of 13.4:1 (peak power) won't hurt it, you will just lose power (no valves to burn or pistons to melt). __________________ 1986 GXL ('87 4-port NA - Haltech E8, LS2 Coils. Defined Autoworks Headers, Dual 2.5" Exhaust (Dual Superflow, dBX mufflers) 1991 Coupe (KYB AGX Shocks, Eibach lowering springs, RB exhaust, Stock and Automatic)

08-23-2010, 07:45 PM	#6
Nev Guy with gay car Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 8 Rep Power: 0	i have an aem, has worked great for almost 3 years

10-18-2010, 01:33 AM	#11
AnthonyNYC Self built and tuned... Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: West Islip, Long Island NY Posts: 14 Rep Power: 0	A while back I bought the Innovate Wideband kit with the Bosch sensor. I like it a lot, it worked well. I mounted it too close to the turbo and started to get error codes saying it was too close. I then moved it but it was too late, I damaged the sensor. Let's call this sensor number 1. Keep in mind the time to jack the car up, take the downpipe off, tap a new hole, take to shop to get the new bung welded on etc..... So I go out and get a new sensor. Now this worked great. I mounted it on the downpipe but closer to the midpipe. Things were great. Everyday I drive the car to and from work and loved the new sensor. All was good. I now needed to tune the car and added some C16 and after a short time it started reading lean and I added more fuel until the sensor was toast, let's call this sensor number 2. So I went on the Innovate forum and posted about it and was told it should be good up to 500 hours. So I went out and bought another bosch sensor but this time did not use it and just sold the unit with a brand new sensor. So I started doing some more research, more can add to this or correct me if I am wrong anywhere. Most of the 'cheaper' wideband kits come with the Bosch sensor, the LSU4.2 sensor is most common. These sensors cost anywhere from $50-$90. These are great sensors if you are not going to be using leaded fuel. They do not tolerate heat very well and should be mounted a little further away. Making a copper heat sink will help as well. Now, the better kits come with the NTK sensors. These sensors are way more durable and can tolerate heat very very well. These sensors cost anywhere from $250-300 just for the sensor alone, not the kit. There are 2 NTK sensors. There is an old school L1H1 and a newer L2H2. The L1H1 is no longer in production. I called a few manufactorers of wideband and asked about the various sensors, they all referred to the NTK L1H1 sensor as "bulletproof" These L1H1 sensor costs more than the L2H2, about $50 more. The L2H2 is also a great sensor and replaced the L1H1. If you are looking to get a wideband kit and plan on running leaded fuel, you should try to get a kit that uses an NTK sensor. I ended up getting the FJO Wideband Kit with the older L1H1 setup. Others have been using this setup for years with no issues. I absolutely love it. I have gone through about 10 drums of C16 in the past few months and the sensor is holding up well. I have the sensor mounted in the same spot the Bosch was mounted in that burnt up. I drive the car daily (when it was warm) and the sensor is holding up excellent and works very very well. The extra cost of any kits with the NTK sensor is well worth it in the long run if you run leaded fuel. The Innovate Kit cost me $400 when it first came out with the LC1. 2 sensors went bad which were $75 each. Total cost is $550 but hours of trying to get it right. The FJO kit or other kits using the NTK L2H2 cost roughly $650-$800 but will work well right out of the box. To take the sensors up one more notch up is the NTK sensor that is hand balanced from the factory. (thanks Enzo250 for this info) These sensors are roughly $800-$1000 and used by more experienced tuners. So in the end before buying a wideband look at the environment it will spend the most time in. If you are going to be using Leaded fuel,even sometimes, you might want to consider the NTK sensors. If you are going to be running pump gas all the time, then the Bosch sensors are ok for you.

10-21-2010, 12:18 AM	#12
speedjunkie RCC Loves Me Not You Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 2,089 Rep Power: 20	I've been using Innovate LC-1/XD-16 for a couple years with no problems. I've only been on the dyno a couple times with it but the sensor held up fine, and I haven't been using a heat sink or doing free-air calibrations (mostly because I forgot all about it lol), I would just turn it on and go. My sensor is mounted halfway in my midpipe, right under my shifter hole. It just quit working the other day, but that may be because when I had the tranny out I just let the midpipe hang by the sensor lol. Not sure though.

12-08-2010, 04:34 PM	#13
speedjunkie RCC Loves Me Not You Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 2,089 Rep Power: 20	OK, well I'm slowly joining the Inno-hate club. I ordered a new sensor (just the Bosch style since I won't be running leaded fuel, it came out to about $90 shipped from them) and I'm getting the same problems as the last one, three dashes, which from what I've read indicates no reading from the sensor. I've called about 5 times today and it's like no one is working there anymore. I'm pretty pissed off at this point. I'm looking at FJO and PLX, I've never checked out Tech Edge. Any others (not AEM)?

12-15-2010, 09:42 PM	#14
Waffles Rotary Fan in Training Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: St. Louis Posts: 55 Rep Power: 15	I used an AEM to tune a couple turbo hondas, and it got the job done, but I prefer the Innovate LC-1.

12-15-2010, 11:44 PM	#15
rx71king Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: queens ny Posts: 117 Rep Power: 17	i have bin using fast wideband works great....i like that it has a cigaratte lighter plug.