Oil Pump O-ring Mod - Testers NEEDED

[Rotary Inspired]

I never see below 40 PSI at idle with current engine with similar results up top. I do have a the Racing Beat oil pressure reg. Idle is 1120-1200 rpms. Car is a 10AE. Very very large extended port. I actually RTV the pump to the housing where you use the hylomar. I have never had an oil pressure issue since i have started doing this 15+ motors.

[C. Ludwig]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Thanks Ludwig. So just to clarify, the one that I have pictured is considered an S6+ pump correct? Does anyone have pictures of an S4/5 turbo pump?

Yes. The earlier pumps are entirely round without that flared out section.

Did TiTT, did you use a gasket for the front cover? With the S5+ you need to use a gasket of some sort or the white plastic ring with bulge out and press the rubber o-ring into the oil passage. The RX-8 gasket fits the earlier engines and is a metal gasket which seems to be a nice way to go.

[TitaniumTT]

I used the 13B-RE metal gasket (similar to the Renni but no need to trim) along with the white teflon piece and the o-ring. Everything pressed in all nicey nice. I have no idea why it popped out. Now that I think more nad more about it though, the there is no other o-ring to pop out of place. I hate that setup, I really do. I'm thinking about plugging that passage on the iron and reeming the iron to the side and using an NPT to -10 AN fitting on the next engine I build. Just seems like an uneccessary potential failure.

Rot Inspired - my idle is MUCH lower than yours and such it would be expected that my oil pressure lower @ idle. I'll check the logs when my laptop is up and running again to see what the OP is @ 12-1300. When my engine cold idles at that speed I see about 90-100psi

[Longshoe]

I like the idea of doing this kind of oil pressure mod but doesn't excessively high oil pressure like that cause problems? I would think you would want flow and that pressure that high is not necessarily a good thing.

[C. Ludwig]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

I used the 13B-RE metal gasket (similar to the Renni but no need to trim) along with the white teflon piece and the o-ring. Everything pressed in all nicey nice. I have no idea why it popped out. Now that I think more nad more about it though, the there is no other o-ring to pop out of place. I hate that setup, I really do. I'm thinking about plugging that passage on the iron and reeming the iron to the side and using an NPT to -10 AN fitting on the next engine I build. Just seems like an uneccessary potential failure.

Rot Inspired - my idle is MUCH lower than yours and such it would be expected that my oil pressure lower @ idle. I'll check the logs when my laptop is up and running again to see what the OP is @ 12-1300. When my engine cold idles at that speed I see about 90-100psi

13B-RX3 did a good write up on what you're describing on the other site. Though it's a better setup it would be over kill in a street car IMO. Though the front cover o-ring does fail from time to time it's been around long enough and worked well enough that I don't really consider it an issue.

What I have looked for an would like to try is a copper or aluminum crush washer instead of the o-ring but I have yet to find something that is the right combination of diameter and thickness. When I mentioned earlier about the o-ring squeezing out without a gasket on the front cover, that is from experience. We found the o-ring in the cooler many miles down the road. Thing is idle oil pressure on this engine was still solid at around 40 psi. The teflon retainer had been squeezed enough (since I didn't use a front cover gasket) that it was doing the job of holding the seal. Again, I would like to try something similar with a soft metal crush washer.

[TitaniumTT]

I like the crush washer idea. Have you tried looking @ either GoodRidge or McMaster?

For the next engine I build I think I'm going to take your infered advice and skip the metal gasket, use the o-ring and the teflon piece as well and see how that works out. When this engine comes out in a month or so I'll pull the front cover, see if the 0-ring is still there. If not, replace the cover sans gasket and see if the oil pressures are any different.

I do disagree that this is not worth it for a street car. In my opinion this would be better for a street car than a race car becuase of the idle oil pressures. I would like to see oil presure @ idle consistantly be above 25psi to keep the jets in the e-shaft opened at all times. This promotes cooling of the internals more during extended idle periods which a street car sees more than a race car. Just my $.02 though.

[C. Ludwig]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

I like the crush washer idea. Have you tried looking @ either GoodRidge or McMaster?

For the next engine I build I think I'm going to take your infered advice and skip the metal gasket, use the o-ring and the teflon piece as well and see how that works out. When this engine comes out in a month or so I'll pull the front cover, see if the 0-ring is still there. If not, replace the cover sans gasket and see if the oil pressures are any different.

I do disagree that this is not worth it for a street car. In my opinion this would be better for a street car than a race car becuase of the idle oil pressures. I would like to see oil presure @ idle consistantly be above 25psi to keep the jets in the e-shaft opened at all times. This promotes cooling of the internals more during extended idle periods which a street car sees more than a race car. Just my $.02 though.

I looked through McMaster online. Nothing was ideal. I tried some aluminum washers they had that I thought would be a good thickness. They were too large on the OD so I worked them over with the sanding wheel. I just tried it in a mock up and it ended up being too thick and didn't "crush" at all. Thick enough it propped the cover up off the iron. Copper might be soft enough to work in a similar thickness but I never revisited the issue. There has to be something out there that would work, it's just finding it.

Don't do the S5+ cover/iron without a gasket. What I was trying to explain is that if you do this the teflon will be squeezed enough to guarantee the o-ring is pushed into the oil passage. You can mock one up and try to see. Alternately, I would like to try another engine with just the teflon piece as a crush washer and no gasket but I haven't built an engine for myself in some time that I can experiment with.

Another idea I have had regarding the front cover o-ring is to machine the pieces for a dowel. Would work just like the rotor housing to iron joint. The dowel would support the o-ring and pretty much eliminate the chance of a blow out. Again, I've never really had an issue though with the parts properly assembled so it's never been followed through.

If you want the jets open at all times remove the check ball and replace the jet with the Weber jet or the Mazda comp jets. Easy enough. I've used the comp jets in a number of IT engines and never have any issues.

[Whizbang]

hmm once i start the PP project, ill be giving my hand in configuring something as well or at least testing some ideas.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by Gravity Fed

hmm once i start the PP project, ill be giving my hand in configuring something as well or at least testing some ideas.

Bitchin'!

Originally Posted by C. Ludwig

Don't do the S5+ cover/iron without a gasket. What I was trying to explain is that if you do this the teflon will be squeezed enough to guarantee the o-ring is pushed into the oil passage. You can mock one up and try to see. Alternately, I would like to try another engine with just the teflon piece as a crush washer and no gasket but I haven't built an engine for myself in some time that I can experiment with.

That's what I was getting at, no o-ring or gasket. Just the teflon piece.

Originally Posted by C. Ludwig

Another idea I have had regarding the front cover o-ring is to machine the pieces for a dowel. Would work just like the rotor housing to iron joint. The dowel would support the o-ring and pretty much eliminate the chance of a blow out. Again, I've never really had an issue though with the parts properly assembled so it's never been followed through.

That right there is an awesome idea. I meed to look into that for the next engine IFF it continues to be a problem with this one.

Originally Posted by C. Ludwig

If you want the jets open at all times remove the check ball and replace the jet with the Weber jet or the Mazda comp jets. Easy enough. I've used the comp jets in a number of IT engines and never have any issues.

I was told that by removing the bacll and spring (Yes they will always be open) and replacing them with the weber or MazdaComp jets, the idle psi will suffer to the point where the idle should be raised slightly to bump the pressure. This is why I shied away from changing the jets out. No-one could tell me with any certainty what the idle psi would be on a street car. Just that it would be to low for a street car idle. What have been your experiences.

Something else I was going to try was going to be removing the ball and spring but leaving the factory jet in. Seems like a nice compromise

[Rotary Inspired]

Like to hear where yours oil pressure is at that rpm. I wish I could get my idle lower but with primary ports bigger than stock secondaries it doesn't like to idle at below 1000 as well. It gets very rough and almost sounds bridgeportish below 1000

[C. Ludwig]

With the comp jets installed and an FD regulator you should see 30 psi at 1000 rpm hot which is plenty.

The comp jets and the Weber jet are pretty much the same size. The Weber jet just fits inside the stock jet. I'm not crazy about paying the same amount for another part that presses inside something in the crank shaft, so I use the comp jet. Both actually have a smaller orifice than the stock jet. I guess the idea is that with the ball and spring removed they have the same peak flow and still have constant flow.

Also, did some playing around yesterday. The oil pedestal o-rings are a good match for the S5+ front iron. You could possibly use one of those in place of the teflon o-ring/small o-ring combo and do like we do with the earlier engines that don't use the teflon piece and simply omit the front cover gasket in order to squeeze the o-ring a little tighter. The oil pedestal o-ring has a little larger diameter than the regular front cover o-ring as well so you should get plenty of grip on it.

[TitaniumTT]

Hmmmm, I like what your thinking on eliminating the teflon peice. I never did like the two pieces to accomplish the same thing that one could do. I'll try the larger o-ring and skip the teflon piece. I have an entire kit of o-rings so finding a nice sized one shouldn't be a problem. I could always just take the front iron down to Napa and size it there as well. Get the dimensions and order a ton of them from McMaster.

[Nismo]

Brian, I might be interested in testing.