who makes a good wideband?

[RotorDad]

I have the Innovative which I'm happy with. A few friends swear by the PLX & the Zetronics, none of them like the AEM.

[Nev]

i have an aem, has worked great for almost 3 years

[dudemaaan]

I run the innovate lc1 and have had no problems with it in almost 3 years now. Sensor life is usually shortened if you have it too close to the turbo. Best to have it just before the midpipe.

I used to avoid AEM electronics after a bad experience with their Pnp ecu, but that was 7 years ago and I hear they are better now.

This wideband of theirs looks pretty cool.

http://www.wannaspeed.com/index.php?...roducts_id=328

Can connect over wifi, displays on iphone, itouch, android, and storm 2, has 5v output for dataloging, can connect to external gauge, and probably one of the coolest things I had never seen before in a wideband controller is dual EGT probe inputs for logging EGT's along with AFR's.

[RotorDad]

Originally Posted by Nev

i have an aem, has worked great for almost 3 years

Works for some & doesn't for others!

[730RWHP12A]

AEM, most bang for your buck!

[NoDOHC]

The reason that I went with an Innovate the second time, rather than buying another AEM (which has been a good product) was the ability to calibrate and the corresponding accuracy.

The Innovate gives the opportunity to calibrate the wideband frequently in free air to compensate for the long-term degradation in the actual wideband sensor.

The AEM wideband (which can't be re-calibrated) can be off by up to 0.5 AFR after years of use, which could mean death to a closely-tuned turbo car. I think this is the reason that many people do not like them.

At the same time, on an NA car the AEM is fine because if you shoot for 13.2:1 by the wideband, you are probably reasonably close to peak power (error range of 12.7:1 to 13.7:1, which all makes good power). Running a NA engine lean of 13.4:1 (peak power) won't hurt it, you will just lose power (no valves to burn or pistons to melt).

[AnthonyNYC]

A while back I bought the Innovate Wideband kit with the Bosch sensor. I like it a lot, it worked well. I mounted it too close to the turbo and started to get error codes saying it was too close. I then moved it but it was too late, I damaged the sensor. Let's call this sensor number 1. Keep in mind the time to jack the car up, take the downpipe off, tap a new hole, take to shop to get the new bung welded on etc.....

So I go out and get a new sensor. Now this worked great. I mounted it on the downpipe but closer to the midpipe. Things were great. Everyday I drive the car to and from work and loved the new sensor. All was good. I now needed to tune the car and added some C16 and after a short time it started reading lean and I added more fuel until the sensor was toast, let's call this sensor number 2.

So I went on the Innovate forum and posted about it and was told it should be good up to 500 hours. So I went out and bought another bosch sensor but this time did not use it and just sold the unit with a brand new sensor. So I started doing some more research, more can add to this or correct me if I am wrong anywhere.

Most of the 'cheaper' wideband kits come with the Bosch sensor, the LSU4.2 sensor is most common. These sensors cost anywhere from $50-$90. These are great sensors if you are not going to be using leaded fuel. They do not tolerate heat very well and should be mounted a little further away. Making a copper heat sink will help as well.

Now, the better kits come with the NTK sensors. These sensors are way more durable and can tolerate heat very very well. These sensors cost anywhere from $250-300 just for the sensor alone, not the kit. There are 2 NTK sensors. There is an old school L1H1 and a newer L2H2. The L1H1 is no longer in production. I called a few manufactorers of wideband and asked about the various sensors, they all referred to the NTK L1H1 sensor as "bulletproof"
These L1H1 sensor costs more than the L2H2, about $50 more.

The L2H2 is also a great sensor and replaced the L1H1. If you are looking to get a wideband kit and plan on running leaded fuel, you should try to get a kit that uses an NTK sensor.

I ended up getting the FJO Wideband Kit with the older L1H1 setup. Others have been using this setup for years with no issues. I absolutely love it. I have gone through about 10 drums of C16 in the past few months and the sensor is holding up well. I have the sensor mounted in the same spot the Bosch was mounted in that burnt up. I drive the car daily (when it was warm) and the sensor is holding up excellent and works very very well.

The extra cost of any kits with the NTK sensor is well worth it in the long run if you run leaded fuel. The Innovate Kit cost me $400 when it first came out with the LC1. 2 sensors went bad which were $75 each. Total cost is $550 but hours of trying to get it right. The FJO kit or other kits using the NTK L2H2 cost roughly $650-$800 but will work well right out of the box.

To take the sensors up one more notch up is the NTK sensor that is hand balanced from the factory. (thanks Enzo250 for this info) These sensors are roughly $800-$1000 and used by more experienced tuners.

So in the end before buying a wideband look at the environment it will spend the most time in. If you are going to be using Leaded fuel,even sometimes, you might want to consider the NTK sensors. If you are going to be running pump gas all the time, then the Bosch sensors are ok for you.

[speedjunkie]

I've been using Innovate LC-1/XD-16 for a couple years with no problems. I've only been on the dyno a couple times with it but the sensor held up fine, and I haven't been using a heat sink or doing free-air calibrations (mostly because I forgot all about it lol), I would just turn it on and go. My sensor is mounted halfway in my midpipe, right under my shifter hole. It just quit working the other day, but that may be because when I had the tranny out I just let the midpipe hang by the sensor lol. Not sure though.

[speedjunkie]

OK, well I'm slowly joining the Inno-hate club. I ordered a new sensor (just the Bosch style since I won't be running leaded fuel, it came out to about $90 shipped from them) and I'm getting the same problems as the last one, three dashes, which from what I've read indicates no reading from the sensor. I've called about 5 times today and it's like no one is working there anymore. I'm pretty pissed off at this point. I'm looking at FJO and PLX, I've never checked out Tech Edge. Any others (not AEM)?

[Waffles]

I used an AEM to tune a couple turbo hondas, and it got the job done, but I prefer the Innovate LC-1.

[rx71king]

i have bin using fast wideband works great....i like that it has a cigaratte lighter plug.

[RICE RACING]

I use a Neko AF700 as permanent install in my RX7, one friend of mine uses the same meter to tune with.

I also use an Autronic B-Model, this one is nice as a stand alone unit not requiring a PC to set up outputs etc.

The Neko uses a hand calibrated NTK
The Autronic is not as good using just a Lab Grade EUGO NTK

Both are light years ahead of lots of other I have used.

[sen2two]

From what everyone is saying... It seems to be that the sensors are the problem, not the actual wideband hardware.

I have the Innovate LM-1, which I only have in the car when I tune it. I also only run pump gas in the car, and a bit of water/meth. Which gives cooler exhaust temps. So the sensor shouldnt really be a problem for me.

Does anyone have a problem with the actual Innovate set-up that dosnt involve the sensor?

Can you upgrade any one of the above listed "better" sensors to the Innovate set-up?

[speedjunkie]

Just to update, as it turns out the cable between the LC-1 and gauge had come unplugged and THAT is why I was getting the three dashes...so technically I still haven't had any problems with the Innovate wideband. They called me back the day after I called them about 5 times and they told me just because it gets three dashes doesn't necessarily mean the sensor is bad, it just means the gauge is getting no communication from the LC-1 at all, so the LC-1 could have been bad too, but in this case it was just the cable.

I feel like an idiot for not checking all my connections, it just never crossed my mind.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by sen2two

From what everyone is saying... It seems to be that the sensors are the problem, not the actual wideband hardware.

I have the Innovate LM-1, which I only have in the car when I tune it. I also only run pump gas in the car, and a bit of water/meth. Which gives cooler exhaust temps. So the sensor shouldnt really be a problem for me.

Does anyone have a problem with the actual Innovate set-up that dosnt involve the sensor?

Can you upgrade any one of the above listed "better" sensors to the Innovate set-up?

Yes,

The innovate is a toy > like all the ones in that price bracket especial tech edge crap ! they are always OUT compared to professional meters *you should always expect +-0.2 AFR on average with these*.

I tested all of them not on lab gases out of a bottle but on a real car on common feed to new sensors and the cheaper units always especially at rich mixtures were quite random.

I used to bestow the virtues of Innovate stuff wrote hundreds of posts on them and was the sole Australian dealer, but given what I know now there is no way in hell I would recommend one or their technology which is on sold to people like Helltech. NOR would I ever recommend the techedge rubbish that is made in a house in Canberra/Australia by a failed Electronics guru who is regarded by his peers as a "joke" probably why his meters deliver the same results as their owner.

The moral of AFR Instruments is you get an instrument for instruments money, for Toy money you get a Toy.

Save your pennies and buy a proper meter, this is one of the most critical things you will ever measure on a car period, why trust your reading to toys made in someone house or made with flawed technology when for a little more cash you can use the same Gear HKS technology use or what many Automotive OEM companies use to make real performance cars

The NEKO AF-700 is a great unit, look it up on www.rhdjapan.com I am the person who made them stock it its the #1 unit in use in Japan by all top end tuners and development companies, for the cost and what you get its cheap in my books.