20B N/A build thread -- 3rd rotors a charm

[charlies7]

Ok, points have been made..

NOW we can get back on topic about whats going into my car.

I respect both view points on this but its off topic now.

Glen is a respectable builder and im sure Phils builder is respectable as well...This is turning into a bias battle on ideas.

Ill update this weekend with parts and more info hopefully..

[charlies7]

So as far as the engine management I have scratched the idea of going Electromotive for 3 reasons;

1) I have decided to go with the new haltech platinum line of ECU's

2) My tuner recently ditched a old Wolf EMS and switched over to a haltech and really likes the setup and the software. However he still likes the Electromotive systems.

3) Cost, im saving almost a grand on the entire thing, I figure I could use the money elsewhere for the car rather than a ECU when the Haltech is just as capable in completing a job.

I also recieved my exhaust manifold flange and lower intake manifold flange from To_slow, great products!

Ill post pictures of the flanges if anyone is interested.

[classicauto]

Originally Posted by charlies7

So as far as the engine management I have scratched the idea of going Electromotive for 3 reasons;

1) I have decided to go with the new haltech platinum line of ECU's

2) My tuner recently ditched a old Wolf EMS and switched over to a haltech and really likes the setup and the software. However he still likes the Electromotive systems.

3) Cost, im saving almost a grand on the entire thing, I figure I could use the money elsewhere for the car rather than a ECU when the Haltech is just as capable in completing a job.

I also recieved my exhaust manifold flange and lower intake manifold flange from To_slow, great products!

Ill post pictures of the flanges if anyone is interested.

Bear in mind with an Electromotive regarding the cost:

You're getting a superior trigger system with the ECU
You're also getting coils that will never need to be boosted by a CDI. The single tower coils in my car will light 9.00AFR + 375cc of water without blinking an eye.

So if plans are to spend the ECU savings on an ignition, you may want to re-consider.

Just a thought. Obviously they all work well, but the points above were things I never thought about, so just passing it along

My thoughts on the clearance issue:

I had a half bridge engine I ran back in the day witha T04-R. I blew it up and when we tore it down I found the front rotor had ALL of its corner seals on the gear side of the rotor jammed in place. There were scrape marks (still have the rotor if someone wants pics) along the tips of the rotor. I didnot build this engine so I can't comment on the care that was taken with regards to setting proper clearance in the first place (basically whether the housing was undersized for the rotor or not) but I can absolutely tell you my rotors contacted the irons at the tips, and the engine was NEVER over reved. In fact it never even saw stock redline.

I'm no expert though

[charlies7]

Originally Posted by classicauto

Bear in mind with an Electromotive regarding the cost:

You're getting a superior trigger system with the ECU
You're also getting coils that will never need to be boosted by a CDI. The single tower coils in my car will light 9.00AFR + 375cc of water without blinking an eye.

So if plans are to spend the ECU savings on an ignition, you may want to re-consider.

Just a thought. Obviously they all work well, but the points above were things I never thought about, so just passing it along

My thoughts on the clearance issue:

I had a half bridge engine I ran back in the day witha T04-R. I blew it up and when we tore it down I found the front rotor had ALL of its corner seals on the gear side of the rotor jammed in place. There were scrape marks (still have the rotor if someone wants pics) along the tips of the rotor. I didnot build this engine so I can't comment on the care that was taken with regards to setting proper clearance in the first place (basically whether the housing was undersized for the rotor or not) but I can absolutely tell you my rotors contacted the irons at the tips, and the engine was NEVER over reved. In fact it never even saw stock redline.

I'm no expert though

Well again, im going off what my tuner feels like he is more comfortable with..He knows both softwares and has tuned more haltech cars then TEC cars.

As far as the ignition goes I plan on running the 034 motorsport coils with the built in TTL drivers.

http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=277

I figure this should be plenty good enough for my NA application. im not happy with the setup I will go the Electromotive setup.

Charlie

[Herblenny]

I respect that its your build thread.. As requested, all posts related to Clearancing the rotor have been move to HERE

[classicauto]

Originally Posted by charlies7

Well again, im going off what my tuner feels like he is more comfortable with..He knows both softwares and has tuned more haltech cars then TEC cars.

As far as the ignition goes I plan on running the 034 motorsport coils with the built in TTL drivers.

http://www.034motorsport.com/product...roducts_id=277

I figure this should be plenty good enough for my NA application. im not happy with the setup I will go the Electromotive setup.

Charlie

Nice looking coils, they're......familiar



Car is going to be sic though man, I love the N/A 20B's.

Any plans for a custom or tuned length intake? Or just running stock?

[charlies7]

Thanks Phil!

Talk to you later

[Bryan@BNR]

Originally Posted by charlies7

So as far as the engine management I have scratched the idea of going Electromotive for 3 reasons;

1) I have decided to go with the new haltech platinum line of ECU's

2) My tuner recently ditched a old Wolf EMS and switched over to a haltech and really likes the setup and the software. However he still likes the Electromotive systems.

3) Cost, im saving almost a grand on the entire thing, I figure I could use the money elsewhere for the car rather than a ECU when the Haltech is just as capable in completing a job.

I also recieved my exhaust manifold flange and lower intake manifold flange from To_slow, great products!

Ill post pictures of the flanges if anyone is interested.

I had a wolf 3d back in the 90's It was horrible. No one had base maps and everything was trial and error back then. Their new stuff may be different, but I haven't ever heard anyone other than the wolf destributors talking up about it. Haltech, PFC for the win!

[RETed]

Originally Posted by classicauto

Bear in mind with an Electromotive regarding the cost:

You're getting a superior trigger system with the ECU
You're also getting coils that will never need to be boosted by a CDI. The single tower coils in my car will light 9.00AFR + 375cc of water without blinking an eye.

So if plans are to spend the ECU savings on an ignition, you may want to re-consider.

Just a thought. Obviously they all work well, but the points above were things I never thought about, so just passing it along

Gawd, this thread is getting bashed here...

I thought all the Electromotive sign wavers disappeared by now.

The Electromotive trigger systems have the *potential* to offer better accuracy.
The loudest argument for this is when they say to shoot your current EMS ignition and watch the marks jump all over the place during accel and decel.
Sure, it can scare people when the see that, but...
The (rotary) engine has some "slop" (sorry, dunno what the technical term for it is called) from the eccentric shaft to the rotors (positions) themselves.
Anyone can see this just be rotating the eccentric shaft itself (by hand) and see how much play it has without the rotors themselves moving.
I believe the Haltech has better *adjustment* resolution versus the TEC, but I haven't checked the specs on the TEC units for years now.
So where does this leaves us?

Coils don't need to be boosted by anything...
Haltech allows you the flexibility to use almost *any* aftermarket coil you want.
Electromotive likes to push their inductive coil advantage (over CDI) - dunno why.
If you're so inclined against CDI, then you're not required to use CDI with a Haltech.
CDI has been proven in racing, so why bash it?
I like CDI cause it's more consistent versus spark plug gap - try and get that kind of consistency with changing spark plug gap with inductive coils.
LSx coils have been proven (with Haltech set-up's) that do not require CDI for years.
I bet the LSx coils are cheaper versus replacement coils from Electromotive?
Again, flexilbility is the key here, and you're not locked into buying the coils from the EMS brand manufacturer.
There is no mystery on inductive coil technology...
You have input voltage, # of windings or ratio, and output voltage dependent on the two previous...
If your spark is blowing out or not strong enough, either jack up the input voltage or increase the # of windings!
If the spark is still not strong enough, why don't we all run magnetos???

Sorry, I just had to add my 2 cents here due to the bad information...


-Ted

[classicauto]

I'm no electromotive "sign waver" I'm just discussing the aspects of teh system vs. the other considerations he had. He said he was undecided at the start so I was just bringing up some points to consider.

I never said CDI was bad. I just said that the TEC coils work GREAT without it - which is entirely true.
I never said a stock trigger system is bad. I just said the TEC one is superior, which is arguable sure, but how many people have trouble with trigger with an FC CAS? How many different setting do you need to have in a haltech to make it work perfectly? None of these issues exist with the TEC, you install the wheel, mount the mag sensor and it just works - flawlessly. To me, the superiority is there - you never have to worry about it. If the ECU doesn't get a good signal it just doesn't run. With my previous Haltech if the signal wasn't good, the spark would jump all over the place and the tach would go nuts.

Also flexibility can be a good or bad thing. Email haltech and ask for settings for X and Y coils and boxes. Unless you talk to matt you'll get a different answer everytime. I'd rather have a system that I know works to full capacity out of the box with little guess work.

Every system has its quirks, none of them are perfect its just a matter of what works for you.

Now I'll shut up and keep this thread on track

[KaiFD3S]

Daym Charlie, your thread just became a debate thread, wonder what is next to be debated on...LOL...

Let me know how your Custom ITB project is doing too as if I go 20B N/A that would be the route I would like to take...

[Bryan@BNR]

Originally Posted by classicauto

Every system has its quirks, none of them are perfect its just a matter of what works for you.

Now I'll shut up and keep this thread on track

Turn key is the best system. If you don't know how to use the latest and greatest system available what good is it? System bugs can blow engines just like having too much timing or a lean AFR. If you are familliar with a particular system stay loyal to it.

The Haltech E6K is my favorite. Not great resolution but enough for a clean running car that makes very good power.

[RETed]

Originally Posted by classicauto

I just said that the TEC coils work GREAT without it - which is entirely true.

There were implications that CDI is not needed or inferior.
Mazda even went into great lengths of R&D to document that CDI ignition produced more power on a 13B engine.
CDI has it's place.
Why do you think the HKS Twin Power is so popular with FD owners?
Are they all wasting their monies?
Also, your above comments also implies Electromotive has some special coil that works wonders...
In fact, it's just a typical inductive coil.
So why not an aftermarket MSD / Crane Cams / Mallory coil?
Haltech has no problem fire any of those options...

How many different setting do you need to have in a haltech to make it work perfectly?

Technically, you only need one setting.
You're trying to take a Haltech advantage and twist it into a disadvantage.
The Haltech was designed to adapt to almost any available ignition triggering mechanism out there.
Hell, if you want to, you can slap an Electromotive 60-2 trigger wheel and magnetic pick-up's onto your engine, and the Haltech can be confirgured to read this perfectly fine.
So where is your superior accuracy now if all you're touting is the higher resolution trigger wheel?
It doesn't work the other way around.
In general, the Haltech can be installed, adapted, programmed for almost any engine out there, which means it'll be up and running faster than any Electromotive system due to the fact that the TEC systems *require* you to retrofit their ignition trigger wheel and mag sensors.

None of these issues exist with the TEC, you install the wheel, mount the mag sensor and it just works - flawlessly.

There is one flaw...
Since most of the time the Electromotive trigger wheel and magnetic sensors are mounted out in the open, if you're in an extremely dirty environment, it's possible to cause misfires from debris flying into the wheel and / or sensors.
I've heard of this happening on road race cars.
Flawless?
I don't think so.

With my previous Haltech if the signal wasn't good, the spark would jump all over the place and the tach would go nuts.

E6X, right?
If so, then I'll give you that.
If it's an E6K, I would suspect user error.
Even with the newer E8 / E11V2, adjusting GAIN and FILTER settings is key to getting everything to work nicely.
I don't think Electromotive has this kinda adjustment on it's software?
Electromotive had (has?) gap specs for it's wheel to mag sensor spacing.
Off by a few hundredths of an inch can make for inconsistent ignition input.
So do I rather have software adjustment or f*ck with feeler gauges?

Also flexibility can be a good or bad thing. Email haltech and ask for settings for X and Y coils and boxes. Unless you talk to matt you'll get a different answer everytime. I'd rather have a system that I know works to full capacity out of the box with little guess work.

The hardware is only as good as the tuner's ability (and it's tech support).
There's a lot of Haltech resources out there.
There's enough experience to handle the majority of coil (set-up) questions - I don't see that as a problem.
(Personally, I believe heavily in CDI, and I like the option to use it on my installs.)
Most standard CDI single-channel installs have standard settings.
(Aftermarket) inductive coils are all the same with the exception that you can play with the coil dwell time if you want to.
GOOD aftermarket CDI multi-channel boxes (i.e. Autronic / MoTeC / etc.) are all set the same - just like the single channel stuff.
Hell, if all of that confuses you, just keep the ignitor(s), install the CDI betwen the ignitor and coil, and you don't have to change a single setting!
Most tuners want additional flexibility - not the other way around.

Every system has its quirks, none of them are perfect its just a matter of what works for you.

Funny you say that, cause your replies are saying just the opposite.
I've been chanting this mantra for years now:
"Your EMS is only as good as the tuner's abilities and tech support."
Arguing superiority of one EMS over another is a royal waste of time - this very swap of replies in this thread is a good example.
So please, don't tout how your Electromotive is better than Haltech blah, blah, blah...

My replies end here.
Big apologies to charlie7 for soiling your thread.
I just hate it when people spew misinformation.
Anyone wanna debate my points, I welcome them through *PM*.


-Ted

[charlies7]

Ted,

Based on your experience you think I would be ok using LSx coils for my NA setup?

[charlies7]

Originally Posted by KaiFD3S

Daym Charlie, your thread just became a debate thread, wonder what is next to be debated on...LOL...

Let me know how your Custom ITB project is doing too as if I go 20B N/A that would be the route I would like to take...

Kai,

I plan on rapid proto typing the throttle bodies sometime next week to start using them for mock up. I really hope the barrel works well, I have a feeling it might be hard to keep consistant. We'll see, I am feeling very confident in them however.