coils

***TitaniumTT*** · 12-06-2011, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattallac

the aem coils are a little large but doable for my space situation the haltec ls1 coils are a little smaller

Don't waste your time with the LS1 coils, they are miserable little failures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by C. Ludwig

Skip all variants of the LS1 coil all together. Their output is far from impressive. The only LSx coil I would recommend is the truck coil (the one with the heat sink).

I BELIEVE that's the one with the auto-discharge, so setting it up properly in the ecu is key.... just ask the legions of RX8 owners that blew their engines while cranking it with the BHR upgrade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

You will never ever get ANY inductive ignition that will not drop output as a function of rpm *fact*

You will never ever get any inductive ignition that will run a true race spark plug of the coldest heat range from cold start *fact*

You will never ever get any inductive ignition that will fire 50% excess fuel as required in a turbo car, let alone any type of water injection system *fact*

CDI DO NOT create "electrical noise" unless it is a very poor install or fitted by someone who has no idea of CDI systems

But there are times when a CDI is just not needed. Hell, I picked up a whopping 3rwhp when I added a $1200 M&W box. Is that REALLY worth it? NO

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattallac

rice racing my question is the second jen turbo came with inductive coils why didnt they use a cdi ,i do understand electrical theory and yes a cdi can magnify spark or a msd 6a box will multi spark (only to 3k) .i have ran my old repu on the dyno for testing with and without 6a boxes and there was no hp difference .that was a streetport 13b ,holly 600 ,road race header with dual 2" ,166hp to rear wheels at 7500 rpm.now as for turbo application on a rotary i have not tried a cdi yet. with the stock coils on my rx2 i am at 347 hpp on a mustang dyno at 10 psi.7500 rpm.aem coil is 118 mj ,up to 3.2ms

That's becuase MSD's suck.... it's short for My Spark Died. Your car is probably at such a low BHP rating that a CDI ignition system wouldn't make a difference. It's like putting a triple carbon disc on a stock n/a car.

RICE RACING · 12-06-2011, 07:07 PM

brian,

how big is your signature block!!!

Jesus!!!

RETed · 12-06-2011, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

That's becuase MSD's suck.... it's short for My Spark Died. Your car is probably at such a low BHP rating that a CDI ignition system wouldn't make a difference. It's like putting a triple carbon disc on a stock n/a car.

I tend to agree with this statement.
There are two extremes to which this would be the case...
1) The tune is so bad (i.e. too much fuel, ignition timing not optimal) that changing the spark quality does very little to affect power.
2) The tune is optimized for combustion - i.e. BMEP is maxed out - that changing the spark quality does very little to affect power.

It's too bad that the thread took a turn away from the "coils" discussion.

I'll be moving this thread shortly into the Rotary Tech subsection, as this is only remotely connected to FC's.
There is a lot of good info in here.

-Ted

RICE RACING · 12-06-2011, 07:17 PM

Has anyone here (besides me) actually "tested" coil secondary voltage+current+dwell under full load and rpm on any inductive set up being preached?

^I'd love to hear from you^

The debate/problem is this simple, most people end up doing engine calibrations to suit the ignition system limits and that of related items when running inductive. On CDI you have no such issues in my experience

< This problem is exagerated with rpm and higher rotor chamber pressures as some here would know.

RICE RACING · 12-06-2011, 07:29 PM

A customer of mine back in 2003 or so ran a FC motor with Microwreck ECU (inductive ignitors) with Bosch HEC coils in sequential fire mode (4 coil set up). This set up was water injected for our national dyno competition. This set up would not run without ICE primary voltage ignition boosters. Even so it still needed to run warm up spark plugs then get swapped out for race plugs at the competition........ needless to say it set a record for the most power achieved for a 13B and still drive off the dyno and back home

until I engineered & tuned a set up that reset the record wich still stands to this day a few years later, but on a Full CDI equipped car.

Over the years I have tried many inductive set ups, coils, boosters, you name it and in my world of mega power turbocharged monsters they just never ever cut it without some type of limit being reached to get them to fire. Hence my very strong aversion to anything running them, since they just don't work in my experience.

I remember back in my first ever experiments of water injection in 1991 and I almost gave up on the whole idea, cause I just could not get it to work at all using Bosch 008 ignitors and coils. Lucky for me I learned more about ignition systems and realized just how limited non CDI types are. Again for some applications they can be fine, for the OP it may suffice for what he wants to do with his T2 motor and set up.

***TitaniumTT*** · 12-06-2011, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

brian,

how big is your signature block!!!

Jesus!!!

Apparently about 1/2 the size it'll be shortly

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

Has anyone here (besides me) actually "tested" coil secondary voltage+current+dwell under full load and rpm on any inductive set up being preached?

^I'd love to hear from you^

The debate/problem is this simple, most people end up doing engine calibrations to suit the ignition system limits and that of related items when running inductive. On CDI you have no such issues in my experience

< This problem is exagerated with rpm and higher rotor chamber pressures as some here would know.

I haven't gone that far, no. I did build a harness so that I could quickly swap out entire ignition systems. So, ran my Bosch Motorsport coils on the dyno. Ran it rich to the point of misfire. Shut it down, strapped on the M&W, ran it again. Cleaned up the misfire, idled like shit, and made an extra 4 rwhp or something like that. So, is it worth the extra $1000.... not on my car it isn't. But that's all pump and 17psi. 30psi and water injected.... well if the coil can't fire the mix, than it's not the right part for the job. That's what I'm getting at. In the real world there are other factors at play other than, this is the best. It has to be used. Bone stock n/a rebuild..... you gonna throw ID injectors in there? Hell no, they can't be utilized so why bother?

I'm gonna go double my sig block now

RICE RACING · 12-06-2011, 07:35 PM

I remember we spoke about the idle in another thread last year, that can be an issue, but I have found it is system specific (though I have only used about 5 or 7 different CDI brands so can't comment on them all).

You are right, its a horses for courses question. If its down to money and the OP only wants 10psi then he would be mad to fit up a CDI system..... agree.

mattallac · 12-07-2011, 01:33 AM

oh rr you type with angry fingers ,and in my words the word FUCK was not in the sentence .with that said ,topic stated 10 psi of boost ,so for application induction is the way ,in my dyno shop cdi is only needed for high boost .by reading all you have wrote very carefully i am not in a pissing match with you and appreciate what your Fact is ,but the heart of the matter is application is key,some products are valid for certain situations and when they are not needed its a waste of money. and what do the letters OP mean ?

12-06-2011, 07:07 PM	#2
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	brian, how big is your signature block!!! Jesus!!! __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration

12-06-2011, 07:17 PM	#4
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	Has anyone here (besides me) actually "tested" coil secondary voltage+current+dwell under full load and rpm on any inductive set up being preached? ^I'd love to hear from you^ The debate/problem is this simple, most people end up doing engine calibrations to suit the ignition system limits and that of related items when running inductive. On CDI you have no such issues in my experience < This problem is exagerated with rpm and higher rotor chamber pressures as some here would know. __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration Last edited by RICE RACING; 12-06-2011 at 07:19 PM.

12-06-2011, 07:29 PM	#5
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	A customer of mine back in 2003 or so ran a FC motor with Microwreck ECU (inductive ignitors) with Bosch HEC coils in sequential fire mode (4 coil set up). This set up was water injected for our national dyno competition. This set up would not run without ICE primary voltage ignition boosters. Even so it still needed to run warm up spark plugs then get swapped out for race plugs at the competition........ needless to say it set a record for the most power achieved for a 13B and still drive off the dyno and back home until I engineered & tuned a set up that reset the record wich still stands to this day a few years later, but on a Full CDI equipped car. Over the years I have tried many inductive set ups, coils, boosters, you name it and in my world of mega power turbocharged monsters they just never ever cut it without some type of limit being reached to get them to fire. Hence my very strong aversion to anything running them, since they just don't work in my experience. I remember back in my first ever experiments of water injection in 1991 and I almost gave up on the whole idea, cause I just could not get it to work at all using Bosch 008 ignitors and coils. Lucky for me I learned more about ignition systems and realized just how limited non CDI types are. Again for some applications they can be fine, for the OP it may suffice for what he wants to do with his T2 motor and set up. __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration

12-06-2011, 07:35 PM	#7
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	I remember we spoke about the idle in another thread last year, that can be an issue, but I have found it is system specific (though I have only used about 5 or 7 different CDI brands so can't comment on them all). You are right, its a horses for courses question. If its down to money and the OP only wants 10psi then he would be mad to fit up a CDI system..... agree. __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration

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12-07-2011, 01:33 AM	#8
mattallac Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: crockett ca. Posts: 176 Rep Power: 0	oh rr you type with angry fingers ,and in my words the word FUCK was not in the sentence .with that said ,topic stated 10 psi of boost ,so for application induction is the way ,in my dyno shop cdi is only needed for high boost .by reading all you have wrote very carefully i am not in a pissing match with you and appreciate what your Fact is ,but the heart of the matter is application is key,some products are valid for certain situations and when they are not needed its a waste of money. and what do the letters OP mean ?