coils

[mattallac]

rice racing my question is the second jen turbo came with inductive coils why didnt they use a cdi ,i do understand electrical theory and yes a cdi can magnify spark or a msd 6a box will multi spark (only to 3k) .i have ran my old repu on the dyno for testing with and without 6a boxes and there was no hp difference .that was a streetport 13b ,holly 600 ,road race header with dual 2" ,166hp to rear wheels at 7500 rpm.now as for turbo application on a rotary i have not tried a cdi yet. with the stock coils on my rx2 i am at 347 hpp on a mustang dyno at 10 psi.7500 rpm.aem coil is 118 mj ,up to 3.2ms

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by mattallac

rice racing my question is the second jen turbo came with inductive coils why didnt they use a cdi ,i do understand electrical theory and yes a cdi can magnify spark or a msd 6a box will multi spark (only to 3k) .i have ran my old repu on the dyno for testing with and without 6a boxes and there was no hp difference .that was a streetport 13b ,holly 600 ,road race header with dual 2" ,166hp to rear wheels at 7500 rpm.now as for turbo application on a rotary i have not tried a cdi yet. with the stock coils on my rx2 i am at 347 hpp on a mustang dyno at 10 psi.7500 rpm.aem coil is 118 mj ,up to 3.2ms

CDI costs money, Inductive is cheap, that is why OEM dont use it from factory. Look at the factory LeMans winner, you will find CDI on it

If its ported, or running boosted at good power CDI is a no brainer really.....
I have a video of stock std 13B S5 engine block here I ran 10 to 15 years ago > http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm
S5 video > 440rwhp down bottom of page.
You cant do this on inductive with 11 heat range plugs and a true daily driven car, I have had people try all types even with inductive boosters and much higher primary voltage to coils and it just flat out does not ever work as well as any decent CDI system.

One thing you will NEVER see on a good CDI set up is people changing spark plugs to warm up a race engine lol, you wont see people changing plugs cause they are fouled either on true road cars, you also will never see doctored "tunes" cause of misfire limitations imposed by a fundamental lack of secondary voltage or poor spark "type" characteristics (dont worry about token energy ratings some spurt out)......... CDI suits rotary engines end of story.

The bike CDI's are actually some of the most reliable, so are some of the marine version too. I pioneered the use of dynatek systems for rotaries and many across the world have copied my lead on that. Cheap, compact, powerful and reliable with no limits as I have described above at length.

Its a free world chose what you want @ the end of the day, just passing on what most would not care to tell forum people

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by mattallac

the aem coils are a little large but doable for my space situation the haltec ls1 coils are a little smaller

Don't waste your time with the LS1 coils, they are miserable little failures.

Originally Posted by C. Ludwig

Skip all variants of the LS1 coil all together. Their output is far from impressive. The only LSx coil I would recommend is the truck coil (the one with the heat sink).

I BELIEVE that's the one with the auto-discharge, so setting it up properly in the ecu is key.... just ask the legions of RX8 owners that blew their engines while cranking it with the BHR upgrade.

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

You will never ever get ANY inductive ignition that will not drop output as a function of rpm *fact*

You will never ever get any inductive ignition that will run a true race spark plug of the coldest heat range from cold start *fact*

You will never ever get any inductive ignition that will fire 50% excess fuel as required in a turbo car, let alone any type of water injection system *fact*

CDI DO NOT create "electrical noise" unless it is a very poor install or fitted by someone who has no idea of CDI systems

But there are times when a CDI is just not needed. Hell, I picked up a whopping 3rwhp when I added a $1200 M&W box. Is that REALLY worth it? NO

Originally Posted by mattallac

rice racing my question is the second jen turbo came with inductive coils why didnt they use a cdi ,i do understand electrical theory and yes a cdi can magnify spark or a msd 6a box will multi spark (only to 3k) .i have ran my old repu on the dyno for testing with and without 6a boxes and there was no hp difference .that was a streetport 13b ,holly 600 ,road race header with dual 2" ,166hp to rear wheels at 7500 rpm.now as for turbo application on a rotary i have not tried a cdi yet. with the stock coils on my rx2 i am at 347 hpp on a mustang dyno at 10 psi.7500 rpm.aem coil is 118 mj ,up to 3.2ms

That's becuase MSD's suck.... it's short for My Spark Died. Your car is probably at such a low BHP rating that a CDI ignition system wouldn't make a difference. It's like putting a triple carbon disc on a stock n/a car.

[RICE RACING]

brian,

how big is your signature block!!!

Jesus!!!

[RETed]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

That's becuase MSD's suck.... it's short for My Spark Died. Your car is probably at such a low BHP rating that a CDI ignition system wouldn't make a difference. It's like putting a triple carbon disc on a stock n/a car.

I tend to agree with this statement.
There are two extremes to which this would be the case...
1) The tune is so bad (i.e. too much fuel, ignition timing not optimal) that changing the spark quality does very little to affect power.
2) The tune is optimized for combustion - i.e. BMEP is maxed out - that changing the spark quality does very little to affect power.


It's too bad that the thread took a turn away from the "coils" discussion.

I'll be moving this thread shortly into the Rotary Tech subsection, as this is only remotely connected to FC's.
There is a lot of good info in here.


-Ted

[RICE RACING]

Has anyone here (besides me) actually "tested" coil secondary voltage+current+dwell under full load and rpm on any inductive set up being preached?

^I'd love to hear from you^

The debate/problem is this simple, most people end up doing engine calibrations to suit the ignition system limits and that of related items when running inductive. On CDI you have no such issues in my experience < This problem is exagerated with rpm and higher rotor chamber pressures as some here would know.

[RICE RACING]

A customer of mine back in 2003 or so ran a FC motor with Microwreck ECU (inductive ignitors) with Bosch HEC coils in sequential fire mode (4 coil set up). This set up was water injected for our national dyno competition. This set up would not run without ICE primary voltage ignition boosters. Even so it still needed to run warm up spark plugs then get swapped out for race plugs at the competition........ needless to say it set a record for the most power achieved for a 13B and still drive off the dyno and back home until I engineered & tuned a set up that reset the record wich still stands to this day a few years later, but on a Full CDI equipped car.

Over the years I have tried many inductive set ups, coils, boosters, you name it and in my world of mega power turbocharged monsters they just never ever cut it without some type of limit being reached to get them to fire. Hence my very strong aversion to anything running them, since they just don't work in my experience.

I remember back in my first ever experiments of water injection in 1991 and I almost gave up on the whole idea, cause I just could not get it to work at all using Bosch 008 ignitors and coils. Lucky for me I learned more about ignition systems and realized just how limited non CDI types are. Again for some applications they can be fine, for the OP it may suffice for what he wants to do with his T2 motor and set up.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

brian,

how big is your signature block!!!

Jesus!!!

Apparently about 1/2 the size it'll be shortly

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

Has anyone here (besides me) actually "tested" coil secondary voltage+current+dwell under full load and rpm on any inductive set up being preached?

^I'd love to hear from you^

The debate/problem is this simple, most people end up doing engine calibrations to suit the ignition system limits and that of related items when running inductive. On CDI you have no such issues in my experience < This problem is exagerated with rpm and higher rotor chamber pressures as some here would know.

I haven't gone that far, no. I did build a harness so that I could quickly swap out entire ignition systems. So, ran my Bosch Motorsport coils on the dyno. Ran it rich to the point of misfire. Shut it down, strapped on the M&W, ran it again. Cleaned up the misfire, idled like shit, and made an extra 4 rwhp or something like that. So, is it worth the extra $1000.... not on my car it isn't. But that's all pump and 17psi. 30psi and water injected.... well if the coil can't fire the mix, than it's not the right part for the job. That's what I'm getting at. In the real world there are other factors at play other than, this is the best. It has to be used. Bone stock n/a rebuild..... you gonna throw ID injectors in there? Hell no, they can't be utilized so why bother?

I'm gonna go double my sig block now

[RICE RACING]

I remember we spoke about the idle in another thread last year, that can be an issue, but I have found it is system specific (though I have only used about 5 or 7 different CDI brands so can't comment on them all).

You are right, its a horses for courses question. If its down to money and the OP only wants 10psi then he would be mad to fit up a CDI system..... agree.

[mattallac]

oh rr you type with angry fingers ,and in my words the word FUCK was not in the sentence .with that said ,topic stated 10 psi of boost ,so for application induction is the way ,in my dyno shop cdi is only needed for high boost .by reading all you have wrote very carefully i am not in a pissing match with you and appreciate what your Fact is ,but the heart of the matter is application is key,some products are valid for certain situations and when they are not needed its a waste of money. and what do the letters OP mean ?

[RETed]

Originally Posted by mattallac

rice racing my question is the second jen turbo came with inductive coils why didnt they use a cdi ,

RICE RACING mentioned the obvious one about added cost...
There's another reason: reliability.
Most CDI system run in series in terms of electrical circuits.
If the CDI circuit dies, you lose that ignition channel.
This is where the simplicity of inductive (ignition) coils is an advantage.

You have alternate system like the HKS Twin Power, which runs in parallel to your igntion system.
If the HKS Twin Power dies, you don't lose your ignition channel(s).
This advantage can also be a problem...
Sometimes you don't realize that the Twin Power isn't functioning, and this can lead to trouble.
If your set-up requires that you have the Twin Power functioning correctly under full power, and it isn't...well, think about all the fuel being shot into the engine with spark blow-out...

BTW, OP = "Original Poster", which is the person who started the thread, which in this case is...you.


-Ted

[RETed]

Thread moved from 2nd gen section...


-Ted

[RICE RACING]

I only wish I was there so i could take you boys for a ride in RICESP
Just came back from a drive now and it's a fucking rocket I throw a metric ass load of water through the engine, 11 heat range pure race plugs, lots of fuel, and its a gem, pulls through to 8000rpm with over 0.6g applied to your back at almost 100mph! and only on 20psi boost. Intake air temperature in the top half of the manifold is less than 40 deg C (on a 20 deg C ambient day) and all using the stock SP "small" inter cooler.

I'll post up the CDI system I use for others benefit, been running this for over 3 years now with zero reliability issues, idles great, runs anything you can imagine. I did allot of tests on inductive and scrapped it long ago > http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...t=1590&page=15 post #142 onwards

Few pics of my ignition set up below

Here is pics of the RR COP CD system mounted up (CDI boxes next to battery on custom holder), wiring harness and COP's installed.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

I remember we spoke about the idle in another thread last year, that can be an issue, but I have found it is system specific (though I have only used about 5 or 7 different CDI brands so can't comment on them all).

You are right, its a horses for courses question. If its down to money and the OP only wants 10psi then he would be mad to fit up a CDI system..... agree.

Yes we did. The only REAL CDI system that I have experience with is the M&W and the idle sucked. I've got a decent sized street port and the Bosch inductive coils that I have will idle the thing smoothly down to ~800-850 rpm. I generally keep the idle ~1000 though. With the M&W it was lopy, couldn't really hold it. Granted I only spent a few minutes dicking around with it but I did adjust all the idle settings, play around with the restrike option in the software. it got better, but nothing like the inductive coils.

But like you said a year ago, it could be system specific. I just don't have the experience to comment on all of them. The M&W picked up power, fired what the Bosch's couldn't, but the idle quality suffered.

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

I only wish I was there so i could take you boys for a ride in RICESP
Just came back from a drive now and it's a fucking rocket I throw a metric ass load of water through the engine, 11 heat range pure race plugs, lots of fuel, and its a gem, pulls through to 8000rpm with over 0.6g applied to your back at almost 100mph! and only on 20psi boost. Intake air temperature in the top half of the manifold is less than 40 deg C (on a 20 deg C ambient day) and all using the stock SP "small" inter cooler.

You should run meth instead of water, ditch the intercooler and see below ambient temps

[RETed]

Okay, I killed that last one cause it doesn't contribute anything to this technical thread.
Most of you are aware that we already have a BDC bashing thread in The Lounge, so you're more than welcome to post to your heart's content in there.
If you want, I can move that reply to The Lounge if you want me to...

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming...


-Ted