Drifting, hellaflush, slammed, tire stretch blog/bash thread.

[Prodigy]

Originally Posted by Rotary no Densetsu

The accident in the thread posted above wasn't due to stretch. It was just a tire blow out. Shit happens all the time.

who knows... might have been the rota wheel.... lol


J.

[Rotary no Densetsu]

Originally Posted by Prodigy

who knows... might have been the rota wheel.... lol


J.

I lol'd

The guy wasn't drifting when it happened, probably was over inflated though, 40-45psi.

I know the guy. lmao Just throwing that out there.

[RETed]

I dunno if this was a joke...

40 - 45psi "overinflated"?
We've run 60psi+ in autocross without any ill effects during the runs.
I've seen guys run inflations up to 80psi at the autocross without blow-out's.

Of course, this is with PROPERLY sized tires to wheels.


-Ted

[Rotary no Densetsu]

I've ran 60psi too. I'm just guesstimating. I don't know why you'd wanna run tire pressure that high though, especially during autox. Hell, I seldom go over 35psi while drifting now. I'm just saying, since people are bringing up factory recommendations. I don't really think I've ever seen any cars with a suggested tire pressure close to 50psi.

[vex]

Originally Posted by Rotary no Densetsu

I've ran 60psi too. I'm just guesstimating. I don't know why you'd wanna run tire pressure that high though, especially during autox. Hell, I seldom go over 35psi while drifting now. I'm just saying, since people are bringing up factory recommendations. I don't really think I've ever seen any cars with a suggested tire pressure close to 50psi.

There are BMW's with recommended tire pressure above the normal level (at least that's the rumor I've heard).

[RETed]

Originally Posted by Rotary no Densetsu

I've ran 60psi too. I'm just guesstimating. I don't know why you'd wanna run tire pressure that high though, especially during autox. Hell, I seldom go over 35psi while drifting now. I'm just saying, since people are bringing up factory recommendations. I don't really think I've ever seen any cars with a suggested tire pressure close to 50psi.

It was done old-school way...
One "owner" was an exec at the local Toyota dealership.
For shits and giggles, he brought out a brand new Tercel - very soft suspension with very tall tire profiles.
The autocross track was VERY rough and uneven - old airfield tarmac.

White shoe polish on the sidewall
Bump up the pressure until traction was OFF the sidewall
Nothing fancy

Us newbs were just horrified with how high the (hot) pressures were.
He comforted us saying that he's run tire pressures up to 80psi on very heavy Supras on the autocross course.
Scary...but you can't argue results.


-Ted

[sofaking]

Vex, if you can't do the math just admit it. I don't care if you can't, I can admit I can't. But pretending you're more educated than you are doesn't help your argument. Prove something instead of attempting to pull apart my paragraphs line by line in an attempt to change my point. Everyone else can read what I'm saying. I'm not arguing emotion, I'm not trying to attack anyone. I'm merely saying that you can either 1) Prove your point, or 2) admit you're working in theory. Just because scientific concepts (valid and all) are backing your premise, it doesn't mean that it's not theory. You're dealing with concepts not application, that's theory. What I have a problem with isn't your opinion, it's the fact that you're stating your opinion is some sort of fact. Though you yourself aren't proving it in anything other than theory without application.

@RotorDad
Even the letter from the manufacturer uses the word "could". Because he doesn't have the math to prove. I've got no argument with the letter, even the letter doesn't state as a certainty what's going to happen.

@Mazdabater
That's really your argument? After everyone is arguing intelligently from thier perspective you thought you would add that someone else's opinion makes them an idiot? Classy. As for the pictures that sucks, you can see at a glance how the car hit he was probably drifting. Think the insurance company covers you drifting on the streets?

[vex]

Originally Posted by sofaking

Vex, if you can't do the math just admit it.

The truth of the matter is I'm not going to waste my time and vacation doing the math when you admit the following

I don't care if you can't, I can admit I can't.

Do you see the issue? What's the point in doing something when you don't understand it from the get go? I mean, I don't sit down and work with viscoelastic materials for a living, I don't work with aluminum impregnated 'tire rubber' and run simulation after simulation of stress and strain in FEA for both pressure and temperature variations. Perhaps you should look at some of my posts before pretending you know the first thing about what I can and can not do. I mean, solid rocket motors have no bearing on anything engineering related... oh wait.

Let me put it another way; why should I waste 1-4 hours of my life to prove something to you that you would not believe or understand in the first place.
Let alone do it pro bono?

But pretending you're more educated than you are doesn't help your argument.

You're right. Good thing I'm not pretending. Material Science, Computational Fluid Dynamics, Kinematics, Thin wall structures are just a small portion of my interests and occupation. Do you really want me to teach you the very basics so you can even hope to understand the math behind non-linear material deformation and stress levels? How about I just hand you a book for you to read so you understand the basics.

Prove something instead of attempting to pull apart my paragraphs line by line in an attempt to change my point.

You change you're own points, and have yet to address the issues I've raised. I've already given you enough information to understand the science on a basic level. Which according to your previous posts show that you have yet to even attempt to understand but attempt to dismiss Material Science as theory (which you still have yet to concede).

Everyone else can read what I'm saying. I'm not arguing emotion, I'm not trying to attack anyone.

Yeah, but not everyone is able to cut through your BS as effectively as me and waste my time in responding to you (remember you said I belittle you in one of your first posts, this is what belittling from me feels like and I have a large resivour to pull from if you want to keep going).

I'm merely saying that you can either 1) Prove your point, or 2) admit you're working in theory.

Unfortunately I have justified my point using material science (which contrary to your made up definition is not theory).

Just because scientific concepts (valid and all) are backing your premise, it doesn't mean that it's not theory.

Then you have no idea what theory and science is and how they work together. Let me put it this way: Science is the application of laws and mathematics to model and derive real world outcomes from basic knowledge. Theory is used to test via the scientific method. For instance: Material science allows you to design, build, and test various materials and their behavior under duress. From the wiki article previously posted:

Materials science is an interdisciplinary field applying the properties of matter to various areas of science and engineering. This scientific field investigates the relationship between the structure of materials at atomic or molecular scales and their macroscopic properties. It incorporates elements of applied physics and chemistry.

You're dealing with concepts not application, that's theory.

No. Sorry. It's not.

What I have a problem with isn't your opinion, it's the fact that you're stating your opinion is some sort of fact. Though you yourself aren't proving it in anything other than theory without application.

As has already been shown. The science I've stated is fact. Whether YOU choose to believe it is of little consequence to me. You have as of yet, failed to address any of the numerous points I've brought up. It also appears to me that you fail to understand the basics of this science on a fundamental level. Which leads me all the way back to this point: If you don't understand how the tire is deforming or being stressed, what are you doing stretching the tire in the first place.

In an effort to help YOU better understand the science behind the deformation of the tire. Let's start even more basic than material science. What forces are acting on a tire (entire wheel assembly rim-tire combo mounted on a running car--We'll keep it simple. 2D only for right now)?

[TitaniumTT]

I had a blow-out over the summer from hitting a pothole on the GWB. My tire looked NOTHING like that when I was done. I've also seen a tire that was over-inflated blow out.... it looked identical to that one.... actually, identical.

[TitaniumTT]

I guess it would depend on the setup/track. On the smoother courses I find myself running higher pressures, on the lumpier tracks I find that tire deformation is my friend.... as is the case in the vid I posted were the tire was moving all over the rim but traction was maintained even when exiting a corner HARD on the gas...


Of course your experience may and probably will differ

[Rotary no Densetsu]

Yeah, I can see what you mean. Can't really say a lot, just due to the fact that I've never really done the whole autox thing before. So I don't have any experience there.

[sofaking]

Vex...

Science is the application of laws and mathematics to model and derive real world outcomes from basic knowledge.

Note how the application of laws AND MATHEMATICS are used to model and derive real world outcomes? You're refusing to do the math under the premise that you're right? Prove it. As for thinking you're so intelligent that I wouldn't understand the math because I'm somehow beneath you for not going to the same classes as you in college? Jumping to conclusions again. I can't write programming for shit either, but it doesn't mean when a program isn't working I can't look at the code and see flaws in it. That doesn't mean I can program from scratch though.

The part I don't get is how you still can't understand that without the math you're speculating based on your understanding of the materials. YES, IT IS WEAKER. NO, THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL BREAK. The math is what ties your your information about the materials to the theory that it is unsafe or will break. Without the math, you're talking theory.

If you want to argue dick size or IQ I've got enough of both. I'm not trying to argue that, I'm trying to argue that you can't stamp something as a fact without testing it or doing anything to prove it. I can cut through your BS and see that you aren't willing to do the math because of one of 2 options, 1) you don't know how (which based on your line of work I'd imagine you probably have the formulas) or 2) you're afraid that the math might give me more to argue with.

I understand the laziness factor; I wouldn't want to do 1-4 hours of math either to prove a point. But without it you're speculating. If you just admit that without the math you're speculating, then we can move on. As someone in the field of this type of mathematics I would venture to say that if you can't admit the math ties your premise to facts then I wouldn't imagine you're very good at your job. It's cool, some engineers get into the field because they heard there is money in it, not because they're naturally good at it.

Oh as for your question, I'm not sure what you're looking for here so I'll just list some stuff off the top of my head and let me know if I'm close to what you're looking for...
Tire pressure, weight on the particular wheel/tire, temperature of all materials and outside temperature, what the tires are filled with (nitrogen, air, helium), The stretch of the tire (still an inch and 1/2 of difference between the recommended wheel widths for a given tire without being outside of spec), the materials used for the wheel and tire, and camber.

Once in motion I would guess...
friction, shock/spring combination, lateral forces and additional compression from the various loads during cornering, braking, acceleration, bumps in the road, wheel/tire balance, toe, and caster.

I'm sure you'll find something I missed, but that's a basic list of shit off the top of my head.

I really can't understand why it's so hard to admit that mathematics is required to prove your point. Without it the only thing that you can say for a fact is that the tire is weaker, weaker =/= failure or unsafe.

[vex]

Originally Posted by sofaking

Vex...


Note how the application of laws AND MATHEMATICS are used to model and derive real world outcomes? You're refusing to do the math under the premise that you're right? Prove it. As for thinking you're so intelligent that I wouldn't understand the math because I'm somehow beneath you for not going to the same classes as you in college? Jumping to conclusions again. I can't write programming for shit either, but it doesn't mean when a program isn't working I can't look at the code and see flaws in it. That doesn't mean I can program from scratch though.

Holy shit. Do you know how uneducated you sound when you typed that? Here's some sample FEA, tell me if it's going to fail:





Look up spring mass damper systems if you're a little hard pressed to understand. From there pick this book up:
http://www.amazon.com/Deformable-Bod...662630&sr=1-10

Once you understand those we'll have something to discuss.

The part I don't get is how you still can't understand that without the math you're speculating based on your understanding of the materials. YES, IT IS WEAKER. NO, THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL BREAK. The math is what ties your your information about the materials to the theory that it is unsafe or will break. Without the math, you're talking theory.

There is not a face palm big enough for what you just typed.

If you want to argue dick size or IQ I've got enough of both. I'm not trying to argue that, I'm trying to argue that you can't stamp something as a fact without testing it or doing anything to prove it. I can cut through your BS and see that you aren't willing to do the math because of one of 2 options, 1) you don't know how (which based on your line of work I'd imagine you probably have the formulas) or 2) you're afraid that the math might give me more to argue with.

Apparently not, but your foot size sure seems sufficient to keep putting in your mouth.

I understand the laziness factor; I wouldn't want to do 1-4 hours of math either to prove a point. But without it you're speculating. If you just admit that without the math you're speculating, then we can move on. As someone in the field of this type of mathematics I would venture to say that if you can't admit the math ties your premise to facts then I wouldn't imagine you're very good at your job. It's cool, some engineers get into the field because they heard there is money in it, not because they're naturally good at it.

Do you need to do math to understand a weaker material is present based on geometry? Nope. Do you need to do the math to tell you a material is an insulator or a conductor? Nope. Your argument is a logical fallacy.

Oh as for your question, I'm not sure what you're looking for here so I'll just list some stuff off the top of my head and let me know if I'm close to what you're looking for...

We'll work with what you posted.

Tire pressure, weight on the particular wheel/tire,

Yes

temperature of all materials and outside temperature,

Are not forces and are not needed for a preliminary analysis

what the tires are filled with (nitrogen, air, helium),

Again not really needed, but good to know.

The stretch of the tire (still an inch and 1/2 of difference between the recommended wheel widths for a given tire without being outside of spec),

This confuses me a little. Are you saying preload of the tires deflection?

the materials used for the wheel and tire,

Yes

and camber.

Yes, but only dictates the location of the force acting on the tire.

Once in motion I would guess...
friction,

Okay, how are you going to calculate that force? Static friction, dynamic friction, all are based of the weight of the wheel in question. Furthermore different compounds have different friction values.

shock/spring combination,

Only matters if you're doing an unsteady deformation analysis (which isn't even done for rocket engines)

lateral forces

Then it's not exactly 2D is it, but for 3D analysis is spot on.

and additional compression from the various loads during cornering,

Which are... what exactly?

braking,

Again, dynamic, but not really needed for preliminary analysis.

acceleration,

Is not a force.

bumps in the road,

Is not a force.

wheel/tire balance, toe, and caster.

Only needed for 3D analysis.

I'm sure you'll find something I missed, but that's a basic list of shit off the top of my head.

Which has basics of it, but are not everything we need. I'm keeping it simple for your benefit.

I really can't understand why it's so hard to admit that mathematics is required to prove your point. Without it the only thing that you can say for a fact is that the tire is weaker, weaker =/= failure or unsafe.

Nor have I intimated it as such. I have stated that deforming a tire outside of manufactures spec prior to normal driving forces will weaken the tire. The difference is do you know how much weaker the tire has become? The obvious answer through your posts is of course, no; you do not.

Now that we have a rough idea of forces I'm going to ask you to draw a picture. Draw a circle. This circle is representative of a tire. Draw the forces on that tire. (I'm thinking of the view you'd get if you looked at a tire from the side) Draw the forces for friction, weight, pressure, etc.

In determining the stress levels we have to use statics (unless you want to do dynamic analysis which is a whole bunch of worms worse than what you think is possible). That means, application of the forces must result in 0 displacement of the body--or the body must undergo stress to maintain unity. But that's getting ahead of ourselves. Lets keep it simple.

Draw a circle and place those forces you've described.


(Just for future reference:
In mathematics, a proof is a convincing demonstration (within the accepted standards of the field) that some mathematical statement is necessarily true. Proofs are obtained from deductive reasoning, rather than from inductive or empirical arguments. That is, a proof must demonstrate that a statement is true in all cases, without a single exception. An unproven proposition that is believed to be true is known as a conjecture.)

[sofaking]

Originally Posted by vex

Nor have I intimated it as such. I have stated that deforming a tire outside of manufactures spec prior to normal driving forces will weaken the tire. The difference is do you know how much weaker the tire has become? The obvious answer through your posts is of course, no; you do not.

Nor do you without the math, and thus stating it's unsafe, or stupid would be a statement of your opinion. Thus you have in fact intimated it as such by going on with all this scientific bullshit that's unrelated. All you had to say 25 posts ago was that you're not stating fact, you're stating your opinion.

Originally Posted by vex

(Just for future reference:
In mathematics, a proof is a convincing demonstration (within the accepted standards of the field) that some mathematical statement is necessarily true. Proofs are obtained from deductive reasoning, rather than from inductive or empirical arguments. That is, a proof must demonstrate that a statement is true in all cases, without a single exception. An unproven proposition that is believed to be true is known as a conjecture.)

Cool, an obscure definition. English is sweet how all common words have multiple meanings. I'm looking for proof as in definition 7, not definition 8.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof
Can you provide it or are you just rambling to make people think you're smart? I wasn't the one that insisted on having it all posted public, I genuinely want see proof (definition 7) stating that it's unsafe. When the argument was deleted I sent a PM (which you posted up here on the new topic so I didn't have to) that said I'm not trying to be an attention whore, I'm trying to get you to prove your point. You replied:

Originally Posted by vex

Posts aren't deleted, they're just in the process of moving to a more appropriate section. I'll respond to your critiques there.

Which leads me to think that it's more important for you to sound like an asshole trying to talk over my head than proving anything. I already said I am not an engineer, nor do I plan to be. That doesn't mean I'm not intelligent and can't debate. Be a condecending asshole if it makes you feel good inflating your ego because you went to college and learned some shit. I can talk over your head on subjects too, but I don't think that makes me smarter, just means I know some shit that you don't. If I spent the time I could do the classes for engineering, seemed boring to me so I went to school to work with computers.

Now for the sake of argument I'll show where you implied (and even stated directly), but flat out stated that it's unsafe to stretch tires...
Page 3

Originally Posted by vex

Sidewall deformation caused by stretching not only results in premature tire failure, but also eliminates the speed rating as viable metric to ensure safety of the car.

Page 3

Originally Posted by vex

a family dies because you used your predictable vehicle behavior to slam into them

Page 4

Originally Posted by vex

I stated that it's not wise, and would prove detrimental to the tire.

Page 5

Originally Posted by vex

So what you're saying is that you're willing to sacrifice factors of safety for deforming a tire and putting strain on the shoulder that is not normally there. Thereby negating entirely the built in factors of safety which the company determined prior to construction.

Those are all verifiable proof (definition 2) that you stated that it's unsafe and will prematurely fail. Now provide proof (definition 7) that the sidewall failure will happen before the tread, or remove the premise that it's unsafe. I am not arguing that it won't weaken the tire, I'm arguing that based on experience I think the tires will last through the tread before the sidewall fails on my stretch.

Being an asshat trying to flex your brain doesn't usually work like this, huh? Most people just roll over and die. I'm not wrong, you're just requiring every possible variable. How very, engineer of you. Can't think for yourself or understand plain fucking english until everything is defined. Now that you have the exact definition of proof I'm looking for I look forward to your next attempt to pick apart my words to some rediculous definition that I clearly don't mean. Being a condecending dick only works on someone who doesn't share high IQs, I choose not to be a part of MENSA, I do qualify. I found a lot of your type of people there and didn't enjoy the company. (Intellectual types that get off on being better than the rest of humanity)

As for your exercise in physics in 2 dimentional form, I see no point in going through this because you're not trying to teach me anything, you're trying to point out how much more intelligent you are. Which is to say how much more you know on the topic. I listed all the factors I could think of that would relate to the topic, 2 or 3 dimensional. If the car is parked or moving would define other metrics. Caster would effect it on 2 dimensions based on the angle the weight is applied. Toe would only effect it while moving. Bumps in the road while moving I would think would be considered a force, but I'm willing to listen to any reasoning you have there. And how is acceleration not a force? Centrifugal force? Torque? These things appear to be forces to me unless we're using an obscure definition of force. I'm using 12a, which one are you using?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/force
Answering beyond what you asked for recieves much criticism as I expected from replying to just what you said. Fuck yourself, you think as an engineer that acceleration isn't force on a tire yet braking is? Awesome, please continue to take me to school. Why don't you draw the diagram and make your point, though I'm not sure what information we're going to gain from calculating the 2 dimentions of a 3 dimentional object. Hopefully we can skip to that too.

[vex]

Originally Posted by sofaking

Nor do you without the math, and thus stating it's unsafe, or stupid would be a statement of your opinion. Thus you have in fact intimated it as such by going on with all this scientific bullshit that's unrelated. All you had to say 25 posts ago was that you're not stating fact, you're stating your opinion.

I didn't say I know the specifics, I could do the math and give you a made up number that has no bearing with the discussion because you'll reduce your stance to the point of absurdum. Let me see if I can be plain for you: From what you've quoted of me in this thread (here comes your reading comprehension).

Sidewall deformation caused by stretching not only results in premature tire failure, but also eliminates the speed rating as viable metric to ensure safety of the car.

This you agreed with when you stated:

Meanwhile arguing with no facts about the science of it besides making it "weaker" doesn't prove anything. 1% weaker is nothing, 500% weaker is huge. No numbers are being discussed.

and from a tire company itself:

Mounting a tire on the incorrect size rim could be dangerous and a safety issue. We strongly discourage it.

So, I think your point becomes moot in that respect.

Is there anything in particular you find incorrect about that statement? If so, please, pretell what is it? Incorrectly mounted tires also negates the speed rating (as the speed rating is set by standard mounting of the tire). Any issue there? Didn't think so.

Cool, an obscure definition. English is sweet how all common words have multiple meanings. I'm looking for proof as in definition 7, not definition 8.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof
Can you provide it or are you just rambling to make people think you're smart? I wasn't the one that insisted on having it all posted public, I genuinely want see proof (definition 7) stating that it's unsafe. When the argument was deleted I sent a PM (which you posted up here on the new topic so I didn't have to) that said I'm not trying to be an attention whore, I'm trying to get you to prove your point. You replied:

Lol, mathematic proofs are not obscure in any sense of the word. But from your link:

1.
evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
2.
anything serving as such evidence: What proof do you have?
3.
the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial: to put a thing to the proof.
4.
the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.
5.
Law . (in judicial proceedings) evidence having probative weight.
6.
the effect of evidence in convincing the mind.
7.
an arithmetical operation serving to check the correctness of a calculation.
8.
Mathematics, Logic . a sequence of steps, statements, or demonstrations that leads to a valid conclusion.
9.
a test to determine the quality, durability, etc., of materials used in manufacture.
10.
Distilling .
a.
the arbitrary standard strength, as of an alcoholic liquor.
b.
strength with reference to this standard: “100 proof” signifies a proof spirit, usually 50% alcohol.
11.
Photography . a trial print from a negative.
12.
Printing .
a.
a trial impression, as of composed type, taken to correct errors and make alterations.
b.
one of a number of early and superior impressions taken before the printing of the ordinary issue: to pull a proof.
13.
(in printmaking) an impression taken from a plate or the like to show the quality or condition of work during the process of execution; a print pulled for examination while working on a plate, block, stone, etc.
14.
Numismatics . one of a limited number of coins of a new issue struck from polished dies on a blank having a polished or matte surface.
15.
the state of having been tested and approved.
16.
proved strength, as of armor.
17.
Scots Law . the trial of a case by a judge alone, without a jury.
–adjective
18.
able to withstand; successful in not being overcome: proof against temptation.
19.
impenetrable, impervious, or invulnerable: proof against outside temperature changes.
20.
used for testing or proving; serving as proof.
21.
of standard strength, as an alcoholic liquor.
22.
of tested or proven strength or quality: proof armor.
23.
noting pieces of pure gold and silver that the U.S. assay and mint offices use as standards.
–verb (used with object)
24.
to test; examine for flaws, errors, etc.; check against a standard or standards.
25.
Printing . prove ( def. 7 ) .
26.
to proofread.
27.
to treat or coat for the purpose of rendering resistant to deterioration, damage, etc. (often used in combination): to proof a house against termites; to shrink-proof a shirt.
28.
Cookery .
a.
to test the effectiveness of (yeast), as by combining with warm water so that a bubbling action occurs.
b.
to cause (esp. bread dough) to rise due to the addition of baker's yeast or other leavening.

You do realize we are not discussing arithmetic at all yes? If you did not know that, let me help you: Arithmetic
Differential Equation
Is more closely related to the science at hand, and hence not arithmetic. If it were simple arithmetic then sure I would do a problem for you without protest. Hell I imagine you could do arithmetic without issue.

Now, back on point: Proof. I personally like definition 7 as it works fine for me, but definitions 1-4, 6-9 (just as a point of clarification I'm attempting to help you along definition 8 in understanding the application), the remaining definitions are of non-use in this application. So I do not think you helped your case any. Just sayin'.

Now back to that quote of mine.

Which leads me to think that it's more important for you to sound like an asshole trying to talk over my head than proving anything.

Which is not as reality is playing out in any regard; an asshole attempts to talk over your head. As I'm taking my time to respond to you in depth about what you post you are free to take it as you want, but I'm only stating what I know. If you have issue with what I post, be specific so I can address it. If you just take issue with what I say only because it doesn't jive with what you want; that's a personal problem. More to the point, I posted it up in public because I said I would, and hey, I did! More to the point you didn't voice any objections to it, so why bring it up? Seems like an attention whore thing to do.

I already said I am not an engineer, nor do I plan to be. That doesn't mean I'm not intelligent and can't debate. Be a condecending asshole if it makes you feel good inflating your ego because you went to college and learned some shit. I can talk over your head on subjects too, but I don't think that makes me smarter, just means I know some shit that you don't.

There you go with that foot in your mouth again: You are arguing an engineering issue. IE; how does improperly mounting a tire effect the strength of the tire itself. You want numbers, will you understand the math behind those numbers? Will you be able to make an educated decision about stretching from that math? I dare say you won't if you don't understand the logic/science behind it. Again, I highly doubt you could talk over my head if you wanted to, but if you want, you're welcome to try. I am very able to live up to your requests of being an asshole, belittle you, smarter than you, and artificially inflate my ego. Just remember you stated these things before I ever started doing them.

If I spent the time I could do the classes for engineering, seemed boring to me so I went to school to work with computers.

Congratulations. Perhaps you should apply that knowledge here as you can easily simulate the tire as a series of circuits (again, look up spring-mass-damper systems).

Now for the sake of argument I'll show where you implied (and even stated directly), but flat out stated that it's unsafe to stretch tires...

Let me help you. The first sentence of that portion was directly to the first sentence in the one I quoted:

I really can't understand why it's so hard to admit that mathematics is required to prove your point.

Nor have I intimated it as such.

Without it the only thing that you can say for a fact is that the tire is weaker, weaker =/= failure or unsafe.

I have stated that deforming a tire outside of manufactures spec prior to normal driving forces will weaken the tire. The difference is do you know how much weaker the tire has become? The obvious answer through your posts is of course, no; you do not.

Better? Now that I have that out of the way. Plastic deformation on a tire is always unsafe and can lead to failure. If you don't agree with that, I don't know if going over the very basics is going to help you. But continuing on...

Those are all verifiable proof (definition 2) that you stated that it's unsafe and will prematurely fail.

See above clarification as I think you may be constructing a strawman.

Now provide proof (definition 7) that the sidewall failure will happen before the tread, or remove the premise that it's unsafe.

See above. I'm willing to help you understand, but as I already stated I'm not going to waste my time to do it for you.

I am not arguing that it won't weaken the tire, I'm arguing that based on experience I think the tires will last through the tread before the sidewall fails on my stretch.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the stretch now doesn't it (and more so to the point of this whole rabbit hole we're in)?

Being an asshat trying to flex your brain doesn't usually work like this, huh? Most people just roll over and die. I'm not wrong, you're just requiring every possible variable. How very, engineer of you. Can't think for yourself or understand plain fucking english until everything is defined. Now that you have the exact definition of proof I'm looking for I look forward to your next attempt to pick apart my words to some rediculous definition that I clearly don't mean.

You mean like arithmetic? LOL (did you at least look up that definition before you posted?)

Being a condecending dick only works on someone who doesn't share high IQs, I choose not to be a part of MENSA, I do qualify.

And I find it hard to believe you were able to figure out how to decline MENSA. See, this is what belittling feels like. Get used to it. You wanted it, remember?

I found a lot of your type of people there and didn't enjoy the company. (Intellectual types that get off on being better than the rest of humanity)

You're not helping your case much with these posts.

As for your exercise in physics in 2 dimentional form, I see no point in going through this because you're not trying to teach me anything, you're trying to point out how much more intelligent you are.

No, if I wanted to do that I'd waste my time and do the math myself, and then suffer through the same umbrage you present throughout this thread.

Which is to say how much more you know on the topic. I listed all the factors I could think of that would relate to the topic, 2 or 3 dimensional. If the car is parked or moving would define other metrics. Caster would effect it on 2 dimensions based on the angle the weight is applied. Toe would only effect it while moving. Bumps in the road while moving I would think would be considered a force, but I'm willing to listen to any reasoning you have there. And how is acceleration not a force?

Lets look at what force is: F=ma, does it look like acceleration is a force? Is acceleration force? Nope. Sorry.

Centrifugal force?

Which I didn't see listed.

Torque?

Torque is not considered a force, but a force acting along a moment arm. An easy check is to look at the units. lbs, Newtons, are forces. ft-lbs, Newton-Meters are torques. These do play in to material mechanics but are usually derived out from the forces placed on the Free Body Diagram (FBD--which by the way I was attempting to get you to do).

These things appear to be forces to me unless we're using an obscure definition of force.

Nope, I'm just using the regular old mathematical definition of Force

I'm using 12a, which one are you using?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/force

You do realize that the force would be affecting the acceleration, or in other words if you draw a FBD with all the forces than acceleration is a byproduct of the calculation, but only matters if you're doing kinematics (which we are not) or inertial forces (which is currently outside your ball park).

Answering beyond what you asked for recieves much criticism as I expected from replying to just what you said.

Lol, I didn't criticize, I just stated what you posted was beyond the mark. Hey, look you said the same thing.

Fuck yourself, you think as an engineer that acceleration isn't force on a tire yet braking is?

Lets see, braking is a force as it works through friction, no? Acceleration still isn't a force. Sorry.

Awesome, please continue to take me to school. Why don't you draw the diagram and make your point, though I'm not sure what information we're going to gain from calculating the 2 dimentions[sic] of a 3 dimentional[sic] object.

Baby steps to understand the 3 dimensional issues. Guess what's after that... Heat addition. If you'd like, we can skip directly to 3D analysis with heat addition and embrittlement.