Drifting, hellaflush, slammed, tire stretch blog/bash thread.

[sofaking]

Defining objective with an emotional argument: awesome.

@classicauto without knowing my suspension setup you can't tell me what part of my suspension flexes the most under load. The tire did make a large difference to the handling of the car when placed up front. Previously before that I was running the same type tire on a 17x7.5 wheel. As for the pot hole thing, I've hit them when not paying attention. I've not hit one while paying attention. I adjust the steering wheel to accommodate for them while driving on the street. Obviously yes, if the lip of the wheel is exposed it's more prone to damage. I'm not saying pothole don't exist, I'm saying be proactive about keeping your wheels nice.

@speedjunkie probably the most valid argument yet. I live in Denver, driven in probably 20 states and 5 other countries. I apparently just don't find potholes as unavoidable as the rest of the masses. As for the name thing, I was pointing out the irony, not trying to come up with the wittiest thing I could think of. Just thought it was funny.

@vex Yes, I'd like to see data on how the tire is deformed (yes, technical data). I agree with Josh, throwing up some random quotes without siting the source doesn't lend itself to the viability of the argument. Another consideration is how much stretch. I've seen some pretty shady stretches, if you're trying to stretch too far I could definitely see it as unsafe. I've got about an inch of stretch on my tires. Meaning each sidewall is flexed out about 1/2 an inch. If you're laying it down at more than about a 45 degree angle I would imagine problems. all the sudden your sidewall can be driven on in the right circumstances.

@max I would imagine the strut blew because there is a range of efficient travel on a strut. Too high on the cylinder and it doesn't work well, too low on the cylinder and it will bottom out destroying it. Coilovers are a different story, they're designed to be able to adjust into their efficiency range. Mostly I see what you're doing here as an attempt to educate in the other factors of suspension and you realize this though.

@RETed You're getting way too worked up buddy. The handling of a car is definitely subjective. Every driver has a way they would prefer it to drive. I prefer my front tires stretched to achieve what I believe to be more predictable handling for my driving style. If you think I placed an argument in there saying that everyone that drives cars like it to handle the same way you read into it somewhere. Cause I didn't. I explained my experience with the words "I personally...". Also, what I FEEL does count for shit in this argument, because I FEEL control of the car. Sadly you can't objectively argue control of a car. It's past it's limits while drifting, it's for me to tell you if I have more or less control of the car. Next you're saying that your argument is based solely on performance and the safety aspect isn't valid. You would somehow be satisfied if a car performed better on stretched tires than on non-stretched tires? I think the difference would be small enough it could come down the the driver, then become a subjective argument about driver, track conditions, etc. etc. etc. Everything is subjective and up for debate. How did you jump to an implication of drifting on the streets? These are the logical fallacies I'm talking about. I don't drift on the streets, I think you're throwing in a point that didn't come from this argument about your opinion of drifters in general. The point that was implied was, "If you're going to lose minimal performance, would you notice on the streets since you're unable to drive at the limits of your tires legally?"

If you're going to argue objective, maybe you should keep your argument objective. Keep your preconceived notions of who people are out of it and argue the point at hand.

There are 2 arguments here. 1) The subjective matter of tire stretch vs. standard sizing. 2) The safety concerns of stretching a tire.

1) doesn't really have a winning side it's like politics or religion. In the end it is subjective and the driver determines if they have more or less control of the car one way or the other.

2) could have an outcome but I don't see any data to back it up one way or the other. So I can only argue from my own experience that it works and I have had no problems with the setup. Because I track my car, the tires don't last long enough to have to worry about longevity of the tire (speaking purely of front tires here since rears don't last an event). So any malformation that might be caused by driving on it for 50000 (or whatever they're rated for) miles I wouldn't have any information about. The front tires probably don't last me 30% of the warrantied mileage so I'll never know unless someone can post up a study of some sort.

I went to look up the rating for the sake of accuracy on my front tires and found this video. A test by Falken... with stretched tires, for grip. It's not a comparison of stretch vs. standard but I am looking at the tires 5sec and 18sec into the video and front and rear tires are stretched. Not huge amounts, but I can look at it and see the sidewall isn't vertical and the lip protector barely comes flush with the wheel. Whereas it's designed to overhang the wheel lip.

[vex]

Originally Posted by sofaking

@vex Yes, I'd like to see data on how the tire is deformed (yes, technical data). I agree with Josh, throwing up some random quotes without siting the source doesn't lend itself to the viability of the argument. Another consideration is how much stretch. I've seen some pretty shady stretches, if you're trying to stretch too far I could definitely see it as unsafe. I've got about an inch of stretch on my tires. Meaning each sidewall is flexed out about 1/2 an inch. If you're laying it down at more than about a 45 degree angle I would imagine problems. all the sudden your sidewall can be driven on in the right circumstances.

What do you mean by technical data? How much tire defelction is altered during a specific corner? Would you like it arranged by contact patch size, wheel size, or some other metric? You seem to demand specifics but be purpously obtuse when it comes to defining the metrics.

Would you like to see acceleration data, lap times, or some other metric? If you have an idea of what you want, I'm sure I can hunt it down for everyone to see. Beyond what I have already posted, what specifically do you have issue with? Is something stated that is not accurate or correct? If so, what is it and why?

[sofaking]

Vex, you post up and clarify with sources for josh, then attempt to belittle me for asking the same question? You offered to post up the information from the tire manufacturers, when I asked for it... you proceeded to act like I was a moron for asking you to quote your sources. One of your quotes specifically said, "Without getting too technical..." I on the other hand would prefer someone to get technical instead of interpreting data that doesn't exist and hasn't been documented anywhere.

As for the data, any data would be good. I've not seen anything other than speculation about how this negatively effects anything. Though your quoted source in the last post (the engineer), said...

"This is done strictly for looks.For practical purposes, the sidewall is taken out of the picture, and the vehicle might as well be riding on solid rubber. (Maybe that's next?) I've heard of a couple of cases where the tire bead pops off during cornering - result is a ruined rim."

1) statement 1 contradicts statement 2. If it is only for looks, yet does something... then it's not strictly for looks. I personally find this to be exactly the response I want from the tires (on my drift car). No sidewall roll, no messing around, turn wheel, car turns. Its not terrible on the street either, I've dailied the drift car without issue.

2) if you haven't heard of a properly mounted tire bead popping off during cornering... then you probably don't spend much time with cars. I had a tire bead break just parked one time. I came out and 1 tire was completely flat. Filled it back up and it drove for many thousands of miles without issue or losing any pressure again.

So the engineer has proven my point, and not made a valid argument against it. No mention of safety or exploding tires, no mention of instant cancer to all those who drive with stretched tires. What I read was a statement of opinion about the process, mention of how it works, what the result is, and a negative scenario that can happen to any mounted tire.

The quote about the sidewall blowing out on an underinflated tire isn't even related. That's about any tire, stretched or not. Has nothing to do with a properly inflated stretched tire.

The michelen quote was unrelated too. If you're going to quote something do it about the subject.

Even a test that shows that a stretched tire will break bead more often than a standard mounted tire would be something. But currently I'm in the same situation I started, no one has shown anything negative besides pure speculation and opinion that it's bad, or doesn't work. This topic's arguments against tire stretching are falling short of proving anything at all.

Also, I notice how nobody made any mention of the fact that Falken stretched thier own tires in a grip test on video. Valid sources shown:
Sofaking = 1
Forum = 0

[RETed]

Originally Posted by sofaking

Also, I notice how nobody made any mention of the fact that Falken stretched thier own tires in a grip test on video. Valid sources shown:
Sofaking = 1
Forum = 0

Wow, and I thought I was bad...seriously.
It's funny how you like to point the finger but I can assure you that you take the prize for arguing-for-arguments-sake.
Yeah, you won.
Have fun standing on your soapbox.
I've got better things to do like cook up some steaks for dinner on the BBQ...


-Ted

[vex]

Originally Posted by sofaking

Vex, you post up and clarify with sources for josh, then attempt to belittle me for asking the same question? You offered to post up the information from the tire manufacturers, when I asked for it... you proceeded to act like I was a moron for asking you to quote your sources. One of your quotes specifically said, "Without getting too technical..." I on the other hand would prefer someone to get technical instead of interpreting data that doesn't exist and hasn't been documented anywhere.

Perhaps you should take a class on reading comprehension. I asked the same thing to Josh. You demand data, but you don't tell me what data you want. But since you've already accused me of belittling you, I will gladely oblige.

As for the data, any data would be good. I've not seen anything other than speculation about how this negatively effects anything. Though your quoted source in the last post (the engineer), said...

So, I'll ask again: What data do you want? Do you want the proper PSI for tire inflation with modified geometry, or would you like something else? Again, you're being obtuse in your desire for data.

"This is done strictly for looks.For practical purposes, the sidewall is taken out of the picture, and the vehicle might as well be riding on solid rubber. (Maybe that's next?) I've heard of a couple of cases where the tire bead pops off during cornering - result is a ruined rim."

1) statement 1 contradicts statement 2. If it is only for looks, yet does something... then it's not strictly for looks. I personally find this to be exactly the response I want from the tires (on my drift car). No sidewall roll, no messing around, turn wheel, car turns. Its not terrible on the street either, I've dailied the drift car without issue.

You really need to take that class on reading coprehension. It states for suspension geometry you can remove the side wall displacement as part of the equation. People do this for looks. Is there something in particular you desire from that specific quote? It would generate the same response if the sidewall displacement was minimized in a proper fitting tire by running solid rubber tires (which that quote further goes on to state would be the same). Which shows to me that you didn't even bother reading the link I posted along with it. As such why should I waste my time and others posting the links if you're going to spout off your agenda without doing the research. Your mantra so far dictates that you are right regardless of any data or anecdotal evidences given. Need I continue? I can, and I am willing.

2) if you haven't heard of a properly mounted tire bead popping off during cornering... then you probably don't spend much time with cars. I had a tire bead break just parked one time. I came out and 1 tire was completely flat. Filled it back up and it drove for many thousands of miles without issue or losing any pressure again.

Actually I have never heard of a properly mounted and inflated tire ever breaking the bead without a structural defect manifesting itself. But since this is your allegation, find me a documented incident where one such occurred.

So the engineer has proven my point, and not made a valid argument against it. No mention of safety or exploding tires, no mention of instant cancer to all those who drive with stretched tires. What I read was a statement of opinion about the process, mention of how it works, what the result is, and a negative scenario that can happen to any mounted tire.

And goes to show you didn't read or learn anything. Congratulations on confirming our suspicion on your intellegence.

The quote about the sidewall blowing out on an underinflated tire isn't even related. That's about any tire, stretched or not. Has nothing to do with a properly inflated stretched tire.

Which begs the question, how do you gage proper inflation when you deform the sidewall that much? You do not fill it to factory spec. What metric do you use to fill it or are you just filling it 'till it's "that'll do?" For all you have shown, you could be driving with it under inflated or over inflated and you wouldn't know would you? You're guessing on something that you have no data on. If you have data on proper pressure filling on deformed sidewall tires then I suggest you enlighten us on how the tensile strength of the sidewall is accounted for.

The michelen quote was unrelated too. If you're going to quote something do it about the subject.

I did and you failed to read it with what I said, so you show you not only lack desire to know, but fail to read. Congratulations.

Even a test that shows that a stretched tire will break bead more often than a standard mounted tire would be something. But currently I'm in the same situation I started, no one has shown anything negative besides pure speculation and opinion that it's bad, or doesn't work. This topic's arguments against tire stretching are falling short of proving anything at all.

Is that all you'd like to have? A statistical analysis of bead breaking no stretched tires?

Also, I notice how nobody made any mention of the fact that Falken stretched thier own tires in a grip test on video. Valid sources shown:
Sofaking = 1
Forum = 0

I haven't watched the video nor did I comment on the video. So, perhaps I should taredown your strawman for you?

I just watched it. I did not hear, nor see any mention to the tire size or rim sized used, nor a mention of stretch on the tire. Perhaps you're a little premature... But there again I think that's probably normal for you in all respects.

[RotorDad]

Originally Posted by sofaking

Also, I notice how nobody made any mention of the fact that Falken stretched thier own tires in a grip test on video. Valid sources shown:
Sofaking = 1
Forum = 0

You are kidding right? You tried & failed at trying to be funny with the retard comment. Now on to your so called Falken tire stretched video! I think you need to watch the video buddy. Look at 1:43 of the video the tire size is clearly evident. It's a 275/35-18 & those wheels are the 18" SVE wheels & they only come in 18"x9" or 18"x10". Okay like I said tire manufactures have listed the recommended size as well as approved sizes in which these tires are designed. To save you the time per their on site they suggest a 18"x9.5" & approve the use of width from 9" to 11", so where is the stretch.

In all respects Forum = 1 & SofaKing = 0 based on your video.