Why go to the trouble? ...........

RICE RACING · 02-13-2011, 01:47 AM

I just was thinking of this after coming back for a 300km drive just now.

Why on earth would you want more power than a 13B turbo can deliver in a properly set up street car? in particular the headaches of 3 rotor transplant.

Out on the highway in my RICESP it is impossible to use full power in 1st, 2nd gears, 3rd gear is very dangerous using it to pass traffic that is doing 65mph or just over 100kmh.... it accelerates so stupidly quickly that literally in just over 2 seconds you are at 100mph and today nearly of 5 different occasions I almost lost it changing lanes, absolutely stupid levels of mid range power and instant response 4k to 8.5k I have yet to be beaten by anything and really shock the fuck out of many sports bikes! If you are game you grab 4th gear and keep onto it and do over 140mph and trust me its very very quick, you are not counting jesus beads waiting for it to happen, I am still yet to be able to look at any instruments when really on it like this (apart from quick glance at tach on shifts). 200+mph is but a formality and simply down to the size of your balls nothing else.

Now these are no hand grenades either been running like this on pump petrol and water injection for well over 8000km and still perfect compression. Economy is flat out unbelievable on 40lt I do 300km distance and that is driving like a mad man and really enjoying it at every opportunity.

So why go to a bigger engine?????
I don't know how the hell you can use more "torque", let alone power, I mean I have to detune my 13B so its not so dangerous on the road, and even so extreme caution needs to be exercised. so what is the go? do people just do it for the noise? or do they not know how to make a 13B fast reliable and durable?

RICE RACING · 02-13-2011, 02:10 AM

I guess dumb cunts like this have something to do with it > http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=903611&page=16 talking about "power under the curve" GT42's & porting LOL, no wonder 20B's are considered ! what a dumb bastard!

RETed · 02-13-2011, 02:41 AM

So you can install a RaceLogic Traction Control box and tune yet another box in your car!

-Ted

RICE RACING · 02-13-2011, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RETed

So you can install a RaceLogic Traction Control box and tune yet another box in your car!

-Ted

Already have that on the 13B fucken

I actually use the speed dependent boost on the Blitz to safe the Traction Control going mad, as it can't cope with the sudden inrush of power that ~21psi produces in 2nd gear, its more efficient to reduce the boost and power, then feed that in @ 3rd gear and 25+psi in 4th and 5th.

I just cant imagine the need to another rotor, unless people are still hung up on not using a turbo the way god had intended.?

I would love to run about 36psi in road trim on the 13B with pump petrol but its just not practical from a traction stand point let alone drive train durability, really need a 4WD chassis to exploit that.

It's like BMW made 1000bhp+ on a 1.5lt 4cyl and even that same motor was used in IMSA in the 80's to punch out a reliable and responsive 800bhp! in 2lt form....... I just think people have no idea how to make power and response, and durability seems to be a foreign concept to them.

ducktape · 02-13-2011, 03:43 AM

There are some ridiculous street cars being cranked out from the factory these days, to say nothing about shed-builds.

I built my street car to compete in the local 1/8th mile "street race" series at my local drag strip. The rules are pretty strict; Licensed and registered road-legal cars only, no trailer queens allowed. Full interior required, stock suspension mounting points, no tubs, no half-chassis.

I built a cherry bridge-port REW. It turned the rollers at 436whp at 1 bar... It was a solid high-10 second car that I literally drove to and from the track (and to work from time to time). The problem is it's just not enough to compete! When the competition shows up with 800hp and can pull the front wheels in a car with factory air-conditioning, air-bags, and a stereo you're just not in the same league.

And believe it or not, lack of adequate torque IS a problem when you're on the bleeding edge. I was able to cut some 60ft times that were close to some of the v8 cars, but you wouldn't believe how hard I had to push to get them. Coming off the line with hot 8.5" slicks, I had to set the two-step rev limiter at 7k and side step the clutch... Anything less, and the engine would bog and I'd lose time. Revving the nuts off the car from a dead-dig caused all sorts of problems. From destroying output shaft bearings and ruining driveshaft yokes, to driveline twist that actually managed to damage the internals. The v8 guys launch almost lazily in comparison.

The 13b is a wonderful platform. I have been building and driving 13b powered cars for 10 years and I have been consistently amazed by what it can do. I even agree that for *most* people, it's all the motor they'll ever need and is more than enough to get you a heap of trouble. But in a world where you can go to a GM dealership and buy a bog-standard Corvette ZR1 with almost 700hp and a warranty, the 20b makes perfect sense. Those few extra cubic inches can keep you competitive without having a motor wound tighter than a rubber band.

RICE RACING · 02-13-2011, 04:07 AM

I do accelerate harder than a ZR1 now and with a stock std 13B-REW

With a RX7 its power to weight and a slippery car. I can push my package much harder and know how much I have in reserve, thus why I was thinking this when I came home and though why do people think about a bigger motor? but I do understand your post and agree. The larger unit is less stressed. Probably allow you to catch a Bugatti too

RICE RACING · 02-13-2011, 05:22 AM

It's all in the boost

Judge Ito · 02-14-2011, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

I just was thinking of this after coming back for a 300km drive just now.

Why on earth would you want more power than a 13B turbo can deliver in a properly set up street car? in particular the headaches of 3 rotor transplant.

Out on the highway in my RICESP it is impossible to use full power in 1st, 2nd gears, 3rd gear is very dangerous using it to pass traffic that is doing 65mph or just over 100kmh.... it accelerates so stupidly quickly that literally in just over 2 seconds you are at 100mph and today nearly of 5 different occasions I almost lost it changing lanes, absolutely stupid levels of mid range power and instant response 4k to 8.5k I have yet to be beaten by anything and really shock the fuck out of many sports bikes! If you are game you grab 4th gear and keep onto it and do over 140mph and trust me its very very quick, you are not counting jesus beads waiting for it to happen, I am still yet to be able to look at any instruments when really on it like this (apart from quick glance at tach on shifts). 200+mph is but a formality and simply down to the size of your balls nothing else.

Now these are no hand grenades either been running like this on pump petrol and water injection for well over 8000km and still perfect compression. Economy is flat out unbelievable on 40lt I do 300km distance and that is driving like a mad man and really enjoying it at every opportunity.

So why go to a bigger engine?????
I don't know how the hell you can use more "torque", let alone power, I mean I have to detune my 13B so its not so dangerous on the road, and even so extreme caution needs to be exercised. so what is the go? do people just do it for the noise? or do they not know how to make a 13B fast reliable and durable?

and you just found this out today? rookie. people don't know until they reach these levels. then when you reach these levels you realize what a fucking dangerous pickle your in. I constantly tell people, they need no more then 350rwhp to feel like in somewhat control and enjoy their rotary powered cars.

My5ABaby · 02-14-2011, 10:37 AM

Sure a 20B swap is expensive, but how much have you spent on your engine to get it to where it's at? I'm not arguing that it tends to be overkill, but let's compare apples to apples.

RETed · 02-14-2011, 10:42 AM

I concur...
With the weight and suspension set-up, 300...350hp makes for a very FUN drive.
It's enough power to walk away from over 90% of the cars out there.
But...
It's always been ingrained by society to be the best...the fastest...#1...
It all ends up being mostly bragging rights in the end.
How many of us can handle 500...600hp safely?
I'll be the first to admit it scares me.

About the 20B specifically...
The added torque is a plus.
The 13B out of boost doesn't have the torque that the extra rotor provides.
I'm not talking about all-out race conditions, but daily driving just putting around on the street...
It's nice to not have to downshift all the time.

-Ted

My5ABaby · 02-14-2011, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RETed

How many of us can handle 500...600hp safely?
I'll be the first to admit it scares me.

I'll be honest, my S4 N/A is the fastest car I've ever really driven, but sometimes that's even a bit much. Granted, you get used to what you're driving, but still.

Max777 · 02-14-2011, 11:53 AM

I asked my instructor at auto-tech once about why we needed a 6 liter turbo-diesel V8 that only does 350hp and 400ft-lbs of torque when a 4g63 2 liter 4cylinder can make those levels of power.

His reply was: The v8 will last 200,000 miles of heavy duty use. The 4 cylinder will not last that long while being stressed to the same point.

The 2 liter 1000hp formula 1 engines of the 80's were powerful, however they only lasted for a very short time, I believe they had 2 engines just for qualifying.

I think that a stock port 20b with a mild single turbo and low boost will last a lot longer than a high strung 13B with the same power output. also, the natural torque off boost makes it more drivable from what I have read so far.

***Herblenny*** · 02-14-2011, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RETed

I concur...
With the weight and suspension set-up, 300...350hp makes for a very FUN drive.
It's enough power to walk away from over 90% of the cars out there.
But...
It's always been ingrained by society to be the best...the fastest...#1...
It all ends up being mostly bragging rights in the end.
How many of us can handle 500...600hp safely?
I'll be the first to admit it scares me.

I agree with you Ted.. my skill level is right around 300 rwhp on the FD...

That being said, I also agree regarding anything above that being just to show off... Hence why I'm building a 20B.. But mainly for 'show' purpose (hopefully 600RWHP). But I know, its not going to be fun except going straight line.

RotorDad · 02-14-2011, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RETed

I concur...
With the weight and suspension set-up, 300...350hp makes for a very FUN drive.
It's enough power to walk away from over 90% of the cars out there.
But...
It's always been ingrained by society to be the best...the fastest...#1...
It all ends up being mostly bragging rights in the end.
How many of us can handle 500...600hp safely?
I'll be the first to admit it scares me.

-Ted

Honestly I have driven numerous cars in the 600+ range without any issues, but anything more then 350-400 in a street driven RX7 is over kill. Big numbers without the rest of the equation is pointless.

RXTASY · 02-14-2011, 03:00 PM

My TII has been between 400 and 550 RWHP for a few years now and I have to concur with everything you are saying.
Sometimes I have to ask myself "why"?
The car is so fast now, it scares the hell out of me when I get on it. It is absolutely the fastest thing I have ever had underneath me.

02-13-2011, 02:10 AM	#2
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	I guess dumb cunts like this have something to do with it > http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=903611&page=16 talking about "power under the curve" GT42's & porting LOL, no wonder 20B's are considered ! what a dumb bastard! __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration

02-13-2011, 04:07 AM	#6
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	I do accelerate harder than a ZR1 now and with a stock std 13B-REW With a RX7 its power to weight and a slippery car. I can push my package much harder and know how much I have in reserve, thus why I was thinking this when I came home and though why do people think about a bigger motor? but I do understand your post and agree. The larger unit is less stressed. Probably allow you to catch a Bugatti too __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration

02-13-2011, 05:22 AM	#7
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	It's all in the boost __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration

02-14-2011, 10:37 AM	#9
My5ABaby Sigh..... Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Murfreesboro, TN Posts: 2,377 Rep Power: 20	Sure a 20B swap is expensive, but how much have you spent on your engine to get it to where it's at? I'm not arguing that it tends to be overkill, but let's compare apples to apples. __________________ 1986 Sport: 132k miles, 5A (Sapphire Blue Metallic), Tokico Blues, Racing Beat Springs, Custom LED tailights (only S4 LED tails in the world), SSR Mark II, Racing Beat exhaust, S5 black interior, Rotary Resurrection rebuild at 120k miles Community Service Manual RotorWiki "Imagination costs nothing; we could build square locomotives or fly to Mars" - Felix Wankel Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the "present."

02-14-2011, 11:53 AM	#12
Max777 Pirate Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Central IL Posts: 1,323 Rep Power: 19	I asked my instructor at auto-tech once about why we needed a 6 liter turbo-diesel V8 that only does 350hp and 400ft-lbs of torque when a 4g63 2 liter 4cylinder can make those levels of power. His reply was: The v8 will last 200,000 miles of heavy duty use. The 4 cylinder will not last that long while being stressed to the same point. The 2 liter 1000hp formula 1 engines of the 80's were powerful, however they only lasted for a very short time, I believe they had 2 engines just for qualifying. I think that a stock port 20b with a mild single turbo and low boost will last a lot longer than a high strung 13B with the same power output. also, the natural torque off boost makes it more drivable from what I have read so far. __________________ Rotaries:They are NOT that complicated!

02-13-2011, 01:47 AM	#1
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	Why go to the trouble? ........... I just was thinking of this after coming back for a 300km drive just now. Why on earth would you want more power than a 13B turbo can deliver in a properly set up street car? in particular the headaches of 3 rotor transplant. Out on the highway in my RICESP it is impossible to use full power in 1st, 2nd gears, 3rd gear is very dangerous using it to pass traffic that is doing 65mph or just over 100kmh.... it accelerates so stupidly quickly that literally in just over 2 seconds you are at 100mph and today nearly of 5 different occasions I almost lost it changing lanes, absolutely stupid levels of mid range power and instant response 4k to 8.5k I have yet to be beaten by anything and really shock the fuck out of many sports bikes! If you are game you grab 4th gear and keep onto it and do over 140mph and trust me its very very quick, you are not counting jesus beads waiting for it to happen, I am still yet to be able to look at any instruments when really on it like this (apart from quick glance at tach on shifts). 200+mph is but a formality and simply down to the size of your balls nothing else. Now these are no hand grenades either been running like this on pump petrol and water injection for well over 8000km and still perfect compression. Economy is flat out unbelievable on 40lt I do 300km distance and that is driving like a mad man and really enjoying it at every opportunity. So why go to a bigger engine????? I don't know how the hell you can use more "torque", let alone power, I mean I have to detune my 13B so its not so dangerous on the road, and even so extreme caution needs to be exercised. so what is the go? do people just do it for the noise? or do they not know how to make a 13B fast reliable and durable? __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration Last edited by RICE RACING; 02-13-2011 at 01:50 AM.

02-13-2011, 03:43 AM	#5
ducktape Hardcore Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Louisville, Ky Posts: 88 Rep Power: 16	There are some ridiculous street cars being cranked out from the factory these days, to say nothing about shed-builds. I built my street car to compete in the local 1/8th mile "street race" series at my local drag strip. The rules are pretty strict; Licensed and registered road-legal cars only, no trailer queens allowed. Full interior required, stock suspension mounting points, no tubs, no half-chassis. I built a cherry bridge-port REW. It turned the rollers at 436whp at 1 bar... It was a solid high-10 second car that I literally drove to and from the track (and to work from time to time). The problem is it's just not enough to compete! When the competition shows up with 800hp and can pull the front wheels in a car with factory air-conditioning, air-bags, and a stereo you're just not in the same league. And believe it or not, lack of adequate torque IS a problem when you're on the bleeding edge. I was able to cut some 60ft times that were close to some of the v8 cars, but you wouldn't believe how hard I had to push to get them. Coming off the line with hot 8.5" slicks, I had to set the two-step rev limiter at 7k and side step the clutch... Anything less, and the engine would bog and I'd lose time. Revving the nuts off the car from a dead-dig caused all sorts of problems. From destroying output shaft bearings and ruining driveshaft yokes, to driveline twist that actually managed to damage the internals. The v8 guys launch almost lazily in comparison. The 13b is a wonderful platform. I have been building and driving 13b powered cars for 10 years and I have been consistently amazed by what it can do. I even agree that for most people, it's all the motor they'll ever need and is more than enough to get you a heap of trouble. But in a world where you can go to a GM dealership and buy a bog-standard Corvette ZR1 with almost 700hp and a warranty, the 20b makes perfect sense. Those few extra cubic inches can keep you competitive without having a motor wound tighter than a rubber band.

02-14-2011, 03:00 PM	#15
RXTASY idahorotary.com Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Idaho Posts: 135 Rep Power: 16	My TII has been between 400 and 550 RWHP for a few years now and I have to concur with everything you are saying. Sometimes I have to ask myself "why"? The car is so fast now, it scares the hell out of me when I get on it. It is absolutely the fastest thing I have ever had underneath me.