Exhaust manifold design

Mazdabater · 09-04-2012, 02:54 AM

So I was sitting there having some beers in the shed the other day and my bloody turbo/manifold setup was staring at me. Half an hour later I have decided that it it too poorly designed and ugly to be on my car.

Back before all my problems started I brought a turbo kit off a "good shop" here in aus, turned out to be full of ebay parts, the manifold cracked and they made me a steam pipe one but copied the ebay design so as not to change the exhaust and the runners vary at least 3" in length, not to mention it's running a chinese wastegate so it's not worthy of going on the FC.

It's probably going to cost more then buying one, but I'm going to make my own one as I think my welds are decent enough now. Planning on making it out of SS321 as it should be alot less prone to cracking under the weight/heat of the turbo.

I have also discovered this site http://www.spdexhaust.com/ and am in love with their collectors

Problem one: Wastegate placement

I know there are mixed opinions on this, I was planning on getting the above site to make me a T4 flanged collector and then tapping the wastegate line in at the flange, are there any downsides to running it off here?

Problem two: Wastegate size.

I'm aiming for 500rwhp. Just brought one of rice's WI kits, have enough fuel and a bridgeport so I'm pretty damn sure I'll hit the mark it's just a matter of how much boost it's going to need. I'm looking at upgrading the turbo, as it's also chinese. A few people have told me to run with it as I might be shocked at how well they perform but it just doesn't sit right with me. I really wanna try the Borg Warner EFR-9180 and now my missus has a decent job, I should be able to buy it in a month or so! This said I'm looking at a Tial 44mm gate going cheap on ausrotary, is this going to be big enough for that size turbo?

Problem three: Runner length

Is there an optimum length for your runners. I know they have to be the same length and in as smooth a flow as possible, but are there advantages to having a shorter or longer manifold?

Problem four: Exhaust flange

Where can I get a stainless 13B flange (preferably 321 but probably doesn't matter for the flange) I could get one made locally but if there is somewhere in the states that does them, will most likely be cheaper.

That's about all the issues I can think of at the moment. Any advice is appreciated.

RICE RACING · 09-04-2012, 06:06 AM

I have stacks of individual flanges in SS per rotor (E-Mail me for price).

My thoughts on your questions:
I have made every type of manifold known to man and probably more.
In turbo cars it makes 2/5ths of fuck all difference at the end of the day.
Make the manifold SHORT and DIRECT and SPLIT PULSE. As short as it needs to be to fit your turbo where it will go! this on its own will dictate that any "theory" on runner length is nothing more than internet bullshit.

Don't worry so much about "tuned lengths" as these theories do NOT apply to turbo systems.

Shortness is your friend on a turbo set up.

I have seen pretty much everything in my life on these pieces of shit and one of the highest power cars I ever seen in my life had a fucken box section manifold on it!!!!! true story!!!!

Don't loose ANY sleep over it, trust me.

RICE RACING · 09-04-2012, 06:09 AM

Just buy a Precsion PT6766SP (ball bearing) Physical Exact same size as a T04Z and a Tial V44.

I have fitted many to cars recently and they make a jizzillion rwhp, much more than you want to make and the boost control is perfect and the waste gates are durable unlike any of the Aust trash you will buy.

PM me if you want to know what exhaust housing size to run.

The BW turbo HYPE is just that, these cunts do not make the power they state, they are unreliable and many people if you could actually buy one! have swapped to the PT6766, two such cases are the RGM R34 and R32 of Mark Berry, I saw these cunts and talked to them at this years world time attack and the cunts gagged over the switch the PT v's BW, on the straights these two cars were totally rapped and made the power!!! the speeds down the straights were gag factor to the max!

Pics I took of the R32 500awkw according to Russ and it looked it around the track!

Shot at 2012-09-04

Shot at 2012-09-04

Another great illustration of the power of these cunts is this car SR20 4cy making 900bhp anyway you cut it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uodrv...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEEft...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-2SH...eature=related

2700lb car and over 154mph! on track in 400m!!! and its driven with H pattern gearbox on the street, now that is POWER!!!!

Now why would you want a BW turbo that you have to wait months for?????????? and SFA people have actually made power with it.

There is a RX7 on here, only other one in the WORLD that has had proper VBOX testing and it runs a precision PT6765 smaller turbine wheel and he runs 10's @140mph! and does the FASTEST recorded 60mph to 130mph time of anyone ever in a true road car. I personally verified his power off the VBOX with my own formula. Easily do what you want with that turbo. See my FAST RX7 thread for proof. < Road car, road weight, real power. smg944 user name.

Libor · 09-04-2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

Just buy a Precsion PT6766SP (ball bearing) Physical Exact same size as a T04Z and a Tial V44.

Or PT6466.
Sound Performance tested back to back 6466 against 6766 at same boost level (36 psi) on stock 2JZ. 6466 has significantly better spool-up and due to higher efficiency at these exact conditions (boost and flow level) it also produced higher peak power and torque. Both compressors have capability to flow over 90 lbs/min of air, which is enough for over 700 HP even on rotary platform.

BorgWarner EFR serie is very nice on the paper and some people are reporting very good transient response which is expectable thanks to very light rotating assembly, but Precision seems to be few steps forward, at least in aerodynamics of wheels itself.

Then again, Precision doesn't bother with some burst testing or maps at all

But they have results like no one

RICE RACING · 09-04-2012, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libor

Or PT6466.
Sound Performance tested back to back 6466 against 6766 at same boost level (36 psi) on stock 2JZ. 6466 has significantly better spool-up and due to higher efficiency at these exact conditions (boost and flow level) it also produced higher peak power and torque. Both compressors have capability to flow over 90 lbs/min of air, which is enough for over 700 HP even on rotary platform.

BorgWarner EFR serie is very nice on the paper and some people are reporting very good transient response which is expectable thanks to very light rotating assembly, but Precision seems to be few steps forward, at least in aerodynamics of wheels itself.

Then again, Precision doesn't bother with some burst testing or maps at all

But they have results like no one

I was going to post that for him but I did not for this reason.

The smaller compressor wheels heat up the air more in the 22psi + range especially when fitted to a rotary engine, thus I recommend the 67mm compressor (lots of experience running these at high boost) so its better for your engine basically, even at lower power levels, remember a wankel still munches a shit load of air! it just does not make the best use of it (IE power generation).

Go the 6766 mate, you will not regret it, absolute **** loads of them on E-Gay, to your door cheap as! will make the power and will be reliable, I witnessed that GTR getting rapped for two days straight, and before that its done allot of work, on just one turbo, no smoke, no snapped shafts, no excuses.

RICE RACING · 09-04-2012, 05:39 PM

Actually ................ Try a 64mm if you like, I have not been bothered to do it myself, I'd be interested to see what you find when you fit it to a 13B and run 30psi boost like we do on the bigger compressor.

Look at my website and you will see I made ~500rwhp in 1997 on a 58m compressor H Trim Garrett T04! fitted with my water injection system.

These new turbo's are a light year in advance of that old shit I ran back then.

100% I say to you stick to the T04 platform, its the perfect turbo for the street, compact, massive power, BEST POWER BAND, and they just work.

rxspeed7 · 09-04-2012, 07:10 PM

Can not stress how much I love the 67mm turbos on these engines. They are honestly the most tried and true turbo setup on a rotary. I've been running one for years myself and just recently decided to step down to a bit smaller turbo and run less power.

Mazdabater · 09-06-2012, 02:42 AM

Alright, you guys talked me into it. Prescision turbo it is. The missus is going to get it for me for my birthday in november haha. The only car I had seen running the EFR-9180 was the Sierra Sierra evo and when I was at WTAC last year they were clocking the highest trap speed on the straight, so much so they were accused of using nitrous. I was looking at getting one when they first came out, liked the idea of the stainless exhaust housing and they claimed to flow as much as a 42r, with a 9mm smaller comp wheel or something, don't remember the details.

I've got a bridgy so I doubt spool will be a problem, PT6766SP it is. I did notice one on ebay claiming that with it's "new technology" they don't require water cooling, only oil. And I had blanked off my water lines for the chinese turbo, so that saves me buying a new water pump housing lol

docmar · 09-07-2012, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

I have stacks of individual flanges in SS per rotor (E-Mail me for price).

My thoughts on your questions:
I have made every type of manifold known to man and probably more.
In turbo cars it makes 2/5ths of fuck all difference at the end of the day.
Make the manifold SHORT and DIRECT and SPLIT PULSE. As short as it needs to be to fit your turbo where it will go! this on its own will dictate that any "theory" on runner length is nothing more than internet bullshit.

Don't worry so much about "tuned lengths" as these theories do NOT apply to turbo systems.

Shortness is your friend on a turbo set up.

I have seen pretty much everything in my life on these pieces of shit and one of the highest power cars I ever seen in my life had a fucken box section manifold on it!!!!! true story!!!!

Don't loose ANY sleep over it, trust me.

The man said it.
Period.

Prodigy · 09-07-2012, 05:58 PM

I'm so glad that users with experience, AND the cars/numbers/data to back them up post in here...

I don't even plan on going single any time soon, but when I do, No one will be able to fool themselves and me with theory bullshit, and taking up half a fricking forum page with numbers... And how much X equals Y, times the lack of velocity with all the broken cars that have* been 'tuned' by such user on the other forum...

I know what kind of manifold to run, type size and brand of turbo, how to keep the motor from blowing (WI)... Not a bunch of random choices built on hype and how much sponsorship someone has...

Again.. Thank you Rice for the input, and Vbox results...

J.

Raksj04 · 09-07-2012, 06:35 PM

what if you only wanted to make about 350rwhp but you wanted a super low turbo lag?

Mazdabater · 09-08-2012, 02:10 AM

I'd say a T04E?? Whatever the fuck that size is haha. I dunno why people worry about turbo lag on a rotary, you've got fuckin nothing until 3k anyway. And Prodigy, we don't need to make the cunts head any bigger then it already is. Eat a dick rice, you go alright. Try something along those lines next time.

RICE RACING · 09-08-2012, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raksj04

what if you only wanted to make about 350rwhp but you wanted a super low turbo lag?

If you have a FD3S the stock twins are best.

If its another model of RX7 then the S4 or S5 turbo fitted with a H Trim T04 compressor wheel is the go for cheap and big response and power to burn.

There is a tone of turbo's to pick. The stock twins are the best set up though hands down up to 420bhp @ the engine.

***TitaniumTT*** · 09-08-2012, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prodigy

I'm so glad that users with experience, AND the cars/numbers/data to back them up post in here...

I don't even plan on going single any time soon, but when I do, No one will be able to fool themselves and me with theory bullshit, and taking up half a fricking forum page with numbers... And how much X equals Y, times the lack of velocity with all the broken cars that have* been 'tuned' by such user on the other forum...

Again.. Thank you Rice for the input, and Vbox results...

J.

soooooooooooooooooooooooooo what you're saying is all the numbers that hc and bdc aren't worth anything? say it isn't so! It's on the internet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

If you have a FD3S the stock twins are best.

If its another model of RX7 then the S4 or S5 turbo fitted with a H Trim T04 compressor wheel is the go for cheap and big response and power to burn.

There is a tone of turbo's to pick. The stock twins are the best set up though hands down up to 420bhp @ the engine.

Problem with the twins si that it's getting harder and harder to find a good set and the mani's are cracking and the turbo's are getting less and less rebuildable etc etc etc...

I agree though... if you're only looking for about 350ish wheel.... tough to beat the response of them... unless some asshat is crazy enough to build a twin setup using a few WG's and some interesting plumbing and 2 different sized turbo's

Mazdabater · 09-08-2012, 05:37 PM

Lol I have a mint condition set of twins sitting in my shed that I can't get rid of.

09-04-2012, 02:54 AM	#1
Mazdabater FC3S Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Townsville, QLD, AUS Posts: 326 Rep Power: 16	Exhaust manifold design So I was sitting there having some beers in the shed the other day and my bloody turbo/manifold setup was staring at me. Half an hour later I have decided that it it too poorly designed and ugly to be on my car. Back before all my problems started I brought a turbo kit off a "good shop" here in aus, turned out to be full of ebay parts, the manifold cracked and they made me a steam pipe one but copied the ebay design so as not to change the exhaust and the runners vary at least 3" in length, not to mention it's running a chinese wastegate so it's not worthy of going on the FC. It's probably going to cost more then buying one, but I'm going to make my own one as I think my welds are decent enough now. Planning on making it out of SS321 as it should be alot less prone to cracking under the weight/heat of the turbo. I have also discovered this site http://www.spdexhaust.com/ and am in love with their collectors Problem one: Wastegate placement I know there are mixed opinions on this, I was planning on getting the above site to make me a T4 flanged collector and then tapping the wastegate line in at the flange, are there any downsides to running it off here? Problem two: Wastegate size. I'm aiming for 500rwhp. Just brought one of rice's WI kits, have enough fuel and a bridgeport so I'm pretty damn sure I'll hit the mark it's just a matter of how much boost it's going to need. I'm looking at upgrading the turbo, as it's also chinese. A few people have told me to run with it as I might be shocked at how well they perform but it just doesn't sit right with me. I really wanna try the Borg Warner EFR-9180 and now my missus has a decent job, I should be able to buy it in a month or so! This said I'm looking at a Tial 44mm gate going cheap on ausrotary, is this going to be big enough for that size turbo? Problem three: Runner length Is there an optimum length for your runners. I know they have to be the same length and in as smooth a flow as possible, but are there advantages to having a shorter or longer manifold? Problem four: Exhaust flange Where can I get a stainless 13B flange (preferably 321 but probably doesn't matter for the flange) I could get one made locally but if there is somewhere in the states that does them, will most likely be cheaper. That's about all the issues I can think of at the moment. Any advice is appreciated. Last edited by Mazdabater; 09-04-2012 at 02:58 AM.

09-04-2012, 06:06 AM	#2
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	I have stacks of individual flanges in SS per rotor (E-Mail me for price). My thoughts on your questions: I have made every type of manifold known to man and probably more. In turbo cars it makes 2/5ths of fuck all difference at the end of the day. Make the manifold SHORT and DIRECT and SPLIT PULSE. As short as it needs to be to fit your turbo where it will go! this on its own will dictate that any "theory" on runner length is nothing more than internet bullshit. Don't worry so much about "tuned lengths" as these theories do NOT apply to turbo systems. Shortness is your friend on a turbo set up. I have seen pretty much everything in my life on these pieces of shit and one of the highest power cars I ever seen in my life had a fucken box section manifold on it!!!!! true story!!!! Don't loose ANY sleep over it, trust me. __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration

09-04-2012, 06:09 AM	#3
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	Just buy a Precsion PT6766SP (ball bearing) Physical Exact same size as a T04Z and a Tial V44. I have fitted many to cars recently and they make a jizzillion rwhp, much more than you want to make and the boost control is perfect and the waste gates are durable unlike any of the Aust trash you will buy. PM me if you want to know what exhaust housing size to run. The BW turbo HYPE is just that, these cunts do not make the power they state, they are unreliable and many people if you could actually buy one! have swapped to the PT6766, two such cases are the RGM R34 and R32 of Mark Berry, I saw these cunts and talked to them at this years world time attack and the cunts gagged over the switch the PT v's BW, on the straights these two cars were totally rapped and made the power!!! the speeds down the straights were gag factor to the max! Pics I took of the R32 500awkw according to Russ and it looked it around the track! Shot at 2012-09-04 Shot at 2012-09-04 Another great illustration of the power of these cunts is this car SR20 4cy making 900bhp anyway you cut it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uodrv...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEEft...layer_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-2SH...eature=related 2700lb car and over 154mph! on track in 400m!!! and its driven with H pattern gearbox on the street, now that is POWER!!!! Now why would you want a BW turbo that you have to wait months for?????????? and SFA people have actually made power with it. There is a RX7 on here, only other one in the WORLD that has had proper VBOX testing and it runs a precision PT6765 smaller turbine wheel and he runs 10's @140mph! and does the FASTEST recorded 60mph to 130mph time of anyone ever in a true road car. I personally verified his power off the VBOX with my own formula. Easily do what you want with that turbo. See my FAST RX7 thread for proof. < Road car, road weight, real power. smg944 user name. __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration Last edited by RICE RACING; 09-04-2012 at 06:43 AM.

09-04-2012, 05:39 PM	#6
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	Actually ................ Try a 64mm if you like, I have not been bothered to do it myself, I'd be interested to see what you find when you fit it to a 13B and run 30psi boost like we do on the bigger compressor. Look at my website and you will see I made ~500rwhp in 1997 on a 58m compressor H Trim Garrett T04! fitted with my water injection system. These new turbo's are a light year in advance of that old shit I ran back then. 100% I say to you stick to the T04 platform, its the perfect turbo for the street, compact, massive power, BEST POWER BAND, and they just work. __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration

09-06-2012, 02:42 AM	#8
Mazdabater FC3S Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Townsville, QLD, AUS Posts: 326 Rep Power: 16	Alright, you guys talked me into it. Prescision turbo it is. The missus is going to get it for me for my birthday in november haha. The only car I had seen running the EFR-9180 was the Sierra Sierra evo and when I was at WTAC last year they were clocking the highest trap speed on the straight, so much so they were accused of using nitrous. I was looking at getting one when they first came out, liked the idea of the stainless exhaust housing and they claimed to flow as much as a 42r, with a 9mm smaller comp wheel or something, don't remember the details. I've got a bridgy so I doubt spool will be a problem, PT6766SP it is. I did notice one on ebay claiming that with it's "new technology" they don't require water cooling, only oil. And I had blanked off my water lines for the chinese turbo, so that saves me buying a new water pump housing lol

09-07-2012, 06:35 PM	#11
Raksj04 I have Ultra power in me. Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 457 Rep Power: 14	what if you only wanted to make about 350rwhp but you wanted a super low turbo lag?

09-08-2012, 02:10 AM	#12
Mazdabater FC3S Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Townsville, QLD, AUS Posts: 326 Rep Power: 16	I'd say a T04E?? Whatever the fuck that size is haha. I dunno why people worry about turbo lag on a rotary, you've got fuckin nothing until 3k anyway. And Prodigy, we don't need to make the cunts head any bigger then it already is. Eat a dick rice, you go alright. Try something along those lines next time.

09-08-2012, 05:37 PM	#15
Mazdabater FC3S Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Townsville, QLD, AUS Posts: 326 Rep Power: 16	Lol I have a mint condition set of twins sitting in my shed that I can't get rid of.