20b Installs

War Eagle · 02-23-2009, 07:27 AM

RotaryProphet - that would be great if a 20B as you described can be done for $22K. I don't know you or your capabilities but you'll have work all day long if that is what you charge and if the work is quality. Those are two big IFs though.

I have a 20B conversion, and like Gordon, have spent way more than the $35K we both think the job could be done for. Most of my money though was "rip off" money where the shop claimed expertise in 20B conversions and then I had to have the work redone by someone else. I now have the car with Jesus Padilla at Kilo Racing in Orlando and I highly recommend him. Dave at KDR is also great as is Logan at Defined Autoworks IF you don't need AC (his kit doesn't support it). Carlos Lopez and Chris Hill in Miami are also very good and have done countless 20B conversions.

Here is the point from me - don't take your car to someone you don't know or doesn't have good recommendations. And if price is your primary concern then don't do the 20B swap. I don't know of anyone that has had a shop do a quality job on a conversion like this for under $30,000 so let the buyer beware.

Regarding the Megasquirt, I wasn't aware that EMS could be used but why bother when there are other units that fully support the 20B like the Haltech you mentioned and for example, Microtech? These are not pricey units and they fully support the 20B setup and they have both been used on countless installs. My current EMS is the Microtech LT-12S. With wiring harness, it's like $1,300 and it has my car running like OEM.

RotaryProphet · 02-23-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by War Eagle

And if price is your primary concern then don't do the 20B swap.

Regarding the Megasquirt, I wasn't aware that EMS could be used but why bother when there are other units that fully support the 20B like the Haltech you mentioned and for example, Microtech? These are not pricey units and they fully support the 20B setup and they have both been used on countless installs. My current EMS is the Microtech LT-12S. With wiring harness, it's like $1,300 and it has my car running like OEM.

Regarding the first point: Definitely don't do 20b if price is an issue. Even $22k is twenty two freaking thousand dollars for an engine swap. You best have a hell of a budget.

As for the Megasquirt, with a few mods on board and doing all the soldering myself, I can have a seriously high powered EFI system for a hair over $300 - the price of the kit and wiring harness. So yes, a thousand dollar savings right there is good enough justification for me, and since I understand how to do it, it's worth it to me. That's just an example of what I'm talking about, not everyone can wield a soldering iron like i can, so not everyone is in a position to spend $300 for something people often spend $1300 on.

War Eagle · 02-23-2009, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotaryProphet

Regarding the first point: Definitely don't do 20b if price is an issue. Even $22k is twenty two freaking thousand dollars for an engine swap. You best have a hell of a budget.

As for the Megasquirt, with a few mods on board and doing all the soldering myself, I can have a seriously high powered EFI system for a hair over $300 - the price of the kit and wiring harness. So yes, a thousand dollar savings right there is good enough justification for me, and since I understand how to do it, it's worth it to me. That's just an example of what I'm talking about, not everyone can wield a soldering iron like i can, so not everyone is in a position to spend $300 for something people often spend $1300 on.

Yes, but the customer is then left with an EMS that can only be supported by you and that's not a very enviable position to be in. At least with an off the shelf solution (read Microtech, Haltech, etc.) the customer can take the car to other mechanics that can work on/tune the car. Saving money is good, but sometimes going with a tried and true solution that costs more is better. I'm all for saving money but I wouldn't scrimp on the EMS that's for sure.

As for the rest of the project, I love having a mechanic/fabricator like you that is in tune with saving money. Why spend more if you don't get an appreciable corresponding benefit?

Would love to see some pics/vids/dyno sheets of your current 20B project.

gmonsen · 02-23-2009, 10:10 AM

Rotary Prophet... My obligations are to the users and not to the sellers on forums and so I apologize up front if you take umbrage at what I am going to say.

Anyone who has a 20b conversion done by a "back yard tuner" who does work to support his or her habit rather than by a full time reputable business have absolutely no right to complain whatsoever for anything that goes wrong. If the car isn't ever completed, costs way more than promised or blows up, that person has no right to complain here on this forum or anywhere else. The forums are littered with people who have gone to some unknown or less-well-known tuner and have had a bad experience.

When I started modding FD's back in the mid-90's I took the approach of identifying parts and their cost and then figuring out how long it would take to do the work at a specified or assumed labor cost. In general I found I was off by at least 100% on the best-guessed builds.

I think you could do an Australian or New Zealand backyard 20b swap for as little as $20-25,000. I have no idea how long it would take you to get it done or what the ultimate quality would be. It would be an interesting FB and would be very fast until something broke. It would be special in the sense that you would have a 20b in an FB. It would not be some beautiful, 600 whp monster that looked great and was "awesome". You get what you pay for.

Your biggest risks in hoping to get a 20b into an FB would be that you were still waiting for it in a year or more. These conversions usually take about 6 months to a year at somebody's shop. If you have it done by a backyard tuner, he may change his life and no longer have time to do your work or he may move to take a new job or his own car may take priority.

Most people who know what's what will tell you that you should either have it done by a reputable shop that has done it many times and you pay through the nose or you know enough to do it yourself.

Gordon

RotaryProphet · 02-23-2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmonsen

Rotary Prophet... My obligations are to the users and not to the sellers on forums and so I apologize up front if you take umbrage at what I am going to say.

Anyone who has a 20b conversion done by a "back yard tuner" who does work to support his or her habit rather than by a full time reputable business have absolutely no right to complain whatsoever for anything that goes wrong. If the car isn't ever completed, costs way more than promised or blows up, that person has no right to complain here on this forum or anywhere else. The forums are littered with people who have gone to some unknown or less-well-known tuner and have had a bad experience.

Fair enough, (and understandable!) but I don't consider myself a "back yard tuner"... how many of those own a shop and operate a private engine dyno? Besides that, I don't know about other people, (and it's certainly worthless to say it), but I take good care of my customers (Ask the guy who's motor I'm re-dynoing and recreating the harness on because of his mis-installation... for free, no less.)

However, I do work a full time job, so in that sense I don't depend on my shop's income at all; it pays for itself, and for my projects, and that's about all I ask for.

As far as using a Megasquirt and only myself being able to work on it; that's not strictly true, Megasquirt tuning is standardized, but in the sense that most shops don't know anything about it, that is true, but most of the people I do work for favor the lower price tag. (It's actually often cheaper to wire in a Megasquirt for me than to replace a defective ECU with a used one).

Once I finish up the last bit if tuning on this motor, I'll try to get some pics up, and some pics of the motor installed, as well as some dyno sheets.

02-23-2009, 10:10 AM	#4
gmonsen The Ancient One Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Eastern Pennsylvania Posts: 144 Rep Power: 18	Rotary Prophet... My obligations are to the users and not to the sellers on forums and so I apologize up front if you take umbrage at what I am going to say. Anyone who has a 20b conversion done by a "back yard tuner" who does work to support his or her habit rather than by a full time reputable business have absolutely no right to complain whatsoever for anything that goes wrong. If the car isn't ever completed, costs way more than promised or blows up, that person has no right to complain here on this forum or anywhere else. The forums are littered with people who have gone to some unknown or less-well-known tuner and have had a bad experience. When I started modding FD's back in the mid-90's I took the approach of identifying parts and their cost and then figuring out how long it would take to do the work at a specified or assumed labor cost. In general I found I was off by at least 100% on the best-guessed builds. I think you could do an Australian or New Zealand backyard 20b swap for as little as $20-25,000. I have no idea how long it would take you to get it done or what the ultimate quality would be. It would be an interesting FB and would be very fast until something broke. It would be special in the sense that you would have a 20b in an FB. It would not be some beautiful, 600 whp monster that looked great and was "awesome". You get what you pay for. Your biggest risks in hoping to get a 20b into an FB would be that you were still waiting for it in a year or more. These conversions usually take about 6 months to a year at somebody's shop. If you have it done by a backyard tuner, he may change his life and no longer have time to do your work or he may move to take a new job or his own car may take priority. Most people who know what's what will tell you that you should either have it done by a reputable shop that has done it many times and you pay through the nose or you know enough to do it yourself. Gordon __________________ 1993 Rx7 R1 20b NA 1994 Rx7 20b supercharged project 1991 BMW 850 6 speed 1991 BMW E30 M3 Evo II

02-23-2009, 07:27 AM	#1
War Eagle Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 240 Rep Power: 18	RotaryProphet - that would be great if a 20B as you described can be done for $22K. I don't know you or your capabilities but you'll have work all day long if that is what you charge and if the work is quality. Those are two big IFs though. I have a 20B conversion, and like Gordon, have spent way more than the $35K we both think the job could be done for. Most of my money though was "rip off" money where the shop claimed expertise in 20B conversions and then I had to have the work redone by someone else. I now have the car with Jesus Padilla at Kilo Racing in Orlando and I highly recommend him. Dave at KDR is also great as is Logan at Defined Autoworks IF you don't need AC (his kit doesn't support it). Carlos Lopez and Chris Hill in Miami are also very good and have done countless 20B conversions. Here is the point from me - don't take your car to someone you don't know or doesn't have good recommendations. And if price is your primary concern then don't do the 20B swap. I don't know of anyone that has had a shop do a quality job on a conversion like this for under $30,000 so let the buyer beware. Regarding the Megasquirt, I wasn't aware that EMS could be used but why bother when there are other units that fully support the 20B like the Haltech you mentioned and for example, Microtech? These are not pricey units and they fully support the 20B setup and they have both been used on countless installs. My current EMS is the Microtech LT-12S. With wiring harness, it's like $1,300 and it has my car running like OEM.