Turbo Selection

VinnyV81 · 04-06-2012, 07:26 PM

Hello,

My name is Vincent and I am kinda new to these forums. I have been working hard on my FC for a while now and I'm in my 5th year of owning and modding the car. I've made a lot of changes but power has always been something I've wanted more of (naturally).

So, I'm looking into turbocharging my N/A S4 motor. I have an spare S5 NA engine that I could use too, but I like the fact that the S4 motor has a little less compression. Here is my setup now:

1987 RX7 S4 with S5 5 lug swap
Full ISC Racing coil over suspension
N/A Clutch type LSD with 4.10 gear
Megasquirt MS3X with stock NA injectors running full sequential
Walbro 255 lph pump
Aeromotive 1:1 FPR with stock fuel lines
OMP and all emissions removed-premix only
ISC Dual pass aluminum radiator (massive)
Electric fan
ISC Dual pass oil cooler (massive)
Stock port motor with S5 upper and lower intake swap
Pinneapple racing 5th and 6th port sleeves wired open
Racing Beat wrapped header with ISC mid pipe and 3" all the way out

For the most part that's what the car has now. I have some S4 upper and lower turbo intake manifold's coming and I'm going to convert the lower to work with the 6 port motor using Aaron Cake's write up. But, I have a few questions since I'm new to turboing a rotary engine.

Turbo selection

I know that this is probably a loaded question, but I would like a turbo that has great boost response from the bottom all the way up. I know that a lot of that comes with tuning work from what I've read, but I wanted to get everyone's opinion on turbo sizing options.

Keep in mind that I don't want to spend big bucks either (again, another shocker...lol). I know a lot of people run diesel turbo's and whatnot, and that may be an option. The megasquirt works very well now that I've got it somewhat decently tuned.

My power goals are probably around the 300 to 350 whp range, but again peak power isn't really what I'm after. I wouldn't mind running more in the future if it warranted it though. Smooth, linear power delivery is what I'm after. I know that this might be difficult to obtain with the rotary engine's exhaust characteristics, but I'd like some opinions. T3? T4? Divided flange? A/R options? What type of exhaust manifold is best? I have looked at some stock ones but most of them have cracks so I don't think that would be a great option. Fuel injector size advice would be helpful as well.

And if there is a "guide" for this kind of stuff and I just haven't found it yet, please feel free to provide me a link! I don't mind reading what's out there at all.

Thanks in advance for the help!

-Vincent

RETed · 04-06-2012, 07:54 PM

No.

-Ted

VinnyV81 · 04-06-2012, 07:59 PM

No? Hmmm...

Clicking on the link to FC3Spro.com did yield some interesting results for turbo selection though. So maybe that was a smart ass way of getting me there?

Thanks

Anyone else care to actually contribute to the conversation?

djmtsu · 04-07-2012, 12:07 AM

Fuel injectors:
-ID 1000cc or 2000cc if you are feeling frisky.

Turbo:
-T04 60-1
-GT35 (overkill)
-stock S5 with a BNR upgrade

I didn't see a wideband in there. If you don't have one, get one. Might want to also look into EGT sensors. Ted can help with that. He likes tuning with EGT as much as he likes saying 'No'

There are many options. It is all in what you want to spend. Might want to make sure the engine is healthy for one. Also remember, NA= high compression. Don't run alot of boost through it unless you have it tuned really well. Also might want to look into Meth injection.

You are in Alabama, so Brian at BNR might be of some good use for you!

VinnyV81 · 04-07-2012, 12:23 AM

Thanks for the response!

So, I could run stock 550 primary and 1,000 secondaries? I think that's what most people do. And yes you are correct, I don't have a wideband yet but will definitely have one when it's all said and done.

I have looked at BNR's website and they're stuff looks impressive, but it's also really expensive. I mean it is a stock turbo after all. For what they charge for a Stage III, I could buy a brand new Garrett or the like. Plus, most stock S5 turbo manifolds have cracks in them and people want an arm and a leg for them also. This was just looking through ebay and the forums.

The engine is very healthy. Car has great power now for it to be NA and half way tuned without a wideband yet. I believe the engine only has around 50,000 miles and was rebuilt by Rotary Performance of Texas way back in like the late 90's.

The real question is how much boost can I run on pump gas? I have heard 7 or 8 psi was the max. I have access to E85 so if I run that I will need even larger injectors and the ability to switch tunes on the fly.

What about turbo manifolds? It appears that a divided flange T4 setup would give better response down low. Is there a source for an aftermarket one if I choose not to go with a stock unit?

Pettersen · 04-07-2012, 03:30 AM

Maby you should read this?

http://www.aaroncake.net/rx-7/projecttina/index.html

Raksj04 · 04-07-2012, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinnyV81

Thanks for the response!

So, I could run stock 550 primary and 1,000 secondaries? I think that's what most people do. And yes you are correct, I don't have a wideband yet but will definitely have one when it's all said and done.

I have looked at BNR's website and they're stuff looks impressive, but it's also really expensive. I mean it is a stock turbo after all. For what they charge for a Stage III, I could buy a brand new Garrett or the like. Plus, most stock S5 turbo manifolds have cracks in them and people want an arm and a leg for them also. This was just looking through ebay and the forums.

The engine is very healthy. Car has great power now for it to be NA and half way tuned without a wideband yet. I believe the engine only has around 50,000 miles and was rebuilt by Rotary Performance of Texas way back in like the late 90's.

The real question is how much boost can I run on pump gas? I have heard 7 or 8 psi was the max. I have access to E85 so if I run that I will need even larger injectors and the ability to switch tunes on the fly.

What about turbo manifolds? It appears that a divided flange T4 setup would give better response down low. Is there a source for an aftermarket one if I choose not to go with a stock unit?

E85 will mess with your fuel lines, and it will clean out the whole fuel system and possible clog up your filter. I have heard of guys using the N/A rotors in the 4 port engines before with good results.

88turboii · 04-07-2012, 07:09 AM

bnrs hybrids are actually pretty cheap. if you go full turbo the costs start adding up.. manifold, wastegate(s), custom downpipe, turbo itself.. but if you decide to go full turbo, everybody here is going to tell you go with T4 hot side with a p-trim.. but if you want response keep it T3 with a stage 3 or 5 wheel, and T04e front side

RETed · 04-07-2012, 07:49 AM

The short answer would be to start with a turbo 13BT engine and go from there.
The 13BT is already designed for boost, and it's a better platform for turbo power to start out with rather than band-aiding your non-turbo 13B to try and make it work.
By the time you fix all the crap that needs to be thrown away and replaced on your non-turbo 13B, you could've started out with a good, imported J-spec or used 13BT.
You NEED a turbo trans, as your non-turbo transmission is going to explode in a very short while.
The NA trans can barely cope with the power of the non-turbo 13B, but once you start to go over 200hp at the wheels, it'll quickly kill itself.
Another reason to just to go 13BT swap + trans...

Now, let's get to why it's not going to work...

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinnyV81

I know that this is probably a loaded question, but I would like a turbo that has great boost response from the bottom all the way up. I know that a lot of that comes with tuning work from what I've read, but I wanted to get everyone's opinion on turbo sizing options.

8<

Keep in mind that I don't want to spend big bucks either (again, another shocker...lol). I know a lot of people run diesel turbo's and whatnot, and that may be an option.

You want your cake and eat it too...?
That's not going to happen.
Cheap will bite you in the ass.
If you can't commit to such a project 100%, you're wasting time and money - go find something else to do half-ass.
About the two best turbos that are matched to the 13B is either a Garrett GT35R or a T04Z.
Both cost serious money, but you can't afford it.
If you can't afford that, then you have to compromise.
You are not going to find a turbo set-up that'll boost from off-idle all the way to redline - either you can't afford it, or it doesn't exist.
Be realistic in expectations.
Just this fact shows me that you have no idea how a turbo works or how to apply a turbocharger for your application.
This is why said: "No."

Quote:

The megasquirt works very well now that I've got it somewhat decently tuned.

Either learn how to make that thing make you breakfast, or throw that crap away and get a decent EMS.
"Somewhat decently tuned" does not cut it when it comes to forced induction.
In normally aspirated engines, you have a larger safety margin.
With forced induction, your safety margin narrows rapidly when you start to increase boost and power.
I recommend you need to be able to tune NA in your sleep before you go touching a turbo engine...

-Ted

djmtsu · 04-07-2012, 09:33 AM

While Ted is harsh, alot of what he said is true.

However, we have 3 locals running turbcharged NA's with no issues, but it is all in the tuning. All are running Haltech EMS's and all have large safety margins in place.

2 are running stock S5 turbo's, and they are not expensive, neither are the manifolds. I have picked quite a few up from people on 7club for less than $200 for both.

Stay away from E85. It is too inconsistent in the blend.

And yes, a BNR is silly cheap in comparison to everything needed for a T4 set up. New fittings and lines, manifold, wastegate, downpipe, gaskets...it all adds up to $$$

Also, the NA trans can work behind a turbo motor. I had an S5 TII in front on an NA trans for over 5 years with no issues whatsoever. However, if you think you are the drift king, or a drag racer you will destroy it. Learn to shift properly and don't 'overshift' the gates and everything will be good.

And I would use ID 1000cc in both primary and secondary.

Also, the local guy running E85 on his NA turbo has twin pumps with dedicated lines to both rails. He is using a monster size turbo and puts down over 400hp...on an NA 6 port turbo. It is all in the tuning!!!

VinnyV81 · 04-07-2012, 10:27 PM

Ted, guys like you is the reason why I don't like to frequent forums anymore. If I wanted the whole "it won't work because you don't have a 13BT and T2 tranny speech" I would of just asked for that....I mean seriously?! This thread is about turbo charging a NA motor which has already been done safely by numerous people. It's what I have available so that's what I'm gonna go with. And what I mean by "somewhat decently tuned" is that it runs very well for not having been put on a dyno. The tune isn't perfect yet but it also isn't finished yet. I have a very firm understanding of how turbocharged systems work and are put together and practical experience to back it up-just haven't done a system on a rotary yet.

There is nothing wrong with the Megasquirt EMS and I have a lot of time and pride in building, wiring, and tuning my car with it and I believe that it is the best system out there, better than most any Haltech or other EMS systems. It has more features and can be used on virtually any engine combination that exsists. It also costs less than a Haltech does. I am one of the first people to run a stock unmodified CAS with full sequential fuel injection using a MS3X expansion board-and it works perfect.

But anyway, I don't need to explain myself to you cause because your approval or opinion of me doesn't mean dick. The only thing I'll apologize for was using the word "cheap". Your right, there's nothing about doing something like this that's cheap. Frugal should of been the word used. I don't have a problem with spending the money in the right places-just didn't want to waste money on the wrong things trying to build a good turbo setup (that isn't half ass). Hence the reason why I asked for advice on a forum that came highly recommended by others. I'm now questioning that...

Anyways, getting back on topic-I appreciate your advice djmtsu. I didn't think about all of the extra cost associated with running an aftermarket turbo manifold and the like. If people have had good luck with the BNR stuff that will probably be a good avenue to take. I will try to round up a stock S5 turbo and manifold in good shape and go from there.

Anybody have advise on good FMIC setups? Fabricate my own or does a good quality setup already exist?

Thanks,
Vincent

RETed · 04-08-2012, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinnyV81

Ted, guys like you is the reason why I don't like to frequent forums anymore.

I think you need to take your ego down a notch, cause it sounds like it got hurt.

Quote:

If I wanted the whole "it won't work because you don't have a 13BT and T2 tranny speech" I would of just asked for that....I mean seriously?!

PLEASE DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.
I did NOT say those words, and if all you could do was infer that statement, you have a poor grasp of the English language.
Is English not your primary langauge?
If so, I apologize for assuming so.
Go reread what I posted - I never said once "it won't work."

Quote:

This thread is about turbo charging a NA motor which has already been done safely by numerous people. It's what I have available so that's what I'm gonna go with.

No, this thread is about you wanting to turbocharge your non-turbo engine with a turbo that can boost from low RPM's all the way up till redline while keeping it "cheap."
Did I miss anything there?

Quote:

And what I mean by "somewhat decently tuned" is that it runs very well for not having been put on a dyno. The tune isn't perfect yet but it also isn't finished yet. I have a very firm understanding of how turbocharged systems work and are put together and practical experience to back it up-just haven't done a system on a rotary yet.

I never said anything about a dyno.
If you have a "firm understanding of how turbocharged systems work" then you wouldn't be ASKING US these questions.

Quote:

There is nothing wrong with the Megasquirt EMS and I have a lot of time and pride in building, wiring, and tuning my car with it and I believe that it is the best system out there, better than most any Haltech or other EMS systems. It has more features and can be used on virtually any engine combination that exsists. It also costs less than a Haltech does. I am one of the first people to run a stock unmodified CAS with full sequential fuel injection using a MS3X expansion board-and it works perfect.

You claiming it's "better than most any Haltech is other EMS systems" is wrong already.
Your ego can't take it I called it "crap."
You're another one of those My-Megasquirt-is-better-than-everything-else chip on your shoulder cause you did put in the time and effort into building something that (barely) runs your engine...with the catch word "cheaper" as your ace-in-the-hole.
This just shows you're ignorant of what is available out there and the whole concept of what an EMS does.
You're lucky RICE RACING doesn't come in here and call you a "****."

Quote:

But anyway, I don't need to explain myself to you cause because your approval or opinion of me doesn't mean dick. The only thing I'll apologize for was using the word "cheap". Your right, there's nothing about doing something like this that's cheap. Frugal should of been the word used. I don't have a problem with spending the money in the right places-just didn't want to waste money on the wrong things trying to build a good turbo setup (that isn't half ass).

I don't really care of your approval or what you think of me.
I don't come on here feeding babies with a silver spoon just because they act like spoiled brats.
If you're willing to spend the money...
Get a Garrett GT35R - GT3582R specifically.
Get rid of all of the stock intake system.
Build an efficient, custom intake manifold system with plenum for the set-up.
Build an efficient turbo exhaust manifold for the turbo.
Run at least 3" for exhaust.
Everything else is a given or self-explanatory.

Quote:

Hence the reason why I asked for advice on a forum that came highly recommended by others. I'm now questioning that...

I am in no way a representative of this forum when replying to you.
If you're going to make a global opinion of this entire forum just because you cannot deal with me, then that your ignorant choice.

Quote:

Anybody have advise on good FMIC setups? Fabricate my own or does a good quality setup already exist?

Didn't you just say...

I have a very firm understanding of how turbocharged systems work and are put together and practical experience to back it up

So either this is a lie, or you have no clue what you're getting yourself into...

-Ted

VinnyV81 · 04-08-2012, 01:59 PM

Quote: