BNR stage 3's (470whp 400tq)

ball joint · 05-14-2013, 05:05 PM

I haven't had a had chance to completely dial in my tune since I fitted the 4" thick ETS front mount, AEM coils, and external wastegate but I had a chance to dyno the car on Slow Motion Motorsports Dynapack (which is the same dynapack Logan at Defined tunes on). Needless to say; was happy with the results but I know there's still more in it as I was only running 19psi for this pull. I was getting breakup at high RPM as it's still too rich up top but I was still able to get the peak power and torque numbers before it started to breakup at high RPM.

Here's the link to the original thread from when I broke the BNR record which has more details about the build.http://www.rx7club.com/time-slips-dy...record-971246/

If you're curious about the external wastegate on the stock frame turbos here's that thread as well.
http://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generatio...-done-1000553/

Time to update this part of your website :-)
"The BNR Stage 3's have the world record on most RWHP made off bolt up hybrid turbochargers for the RX7! 426 RWHP and 365 RWTQ was made at 18 psi of boost! "

***TitaniumTT*** · 05-15-2013, 12:41 AM

Curious to what your EGT's and EMAP was.
what are you running for an ECU?
Pump or race gas?
timing and AFRS @ peak TQ?

***TitaniumTT*** · 05-15-2013, 12:41 AM

Curious to what your EGT's and EMAP was.
what are you running for an ECU?
Pump or race gas?
timing and AFRS @ peak TQ?

ball joint · 05-15-2013, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Curious to what your EGT's and EMAP was.
what are you running for an ECU?
Pump or race gas?
timing and AFRS @ peak TQ?

No idea on EGT's and EMAP.
Power FC
Pump gas with water injection 70/30 water/meth
11advance and around 11.0:1 at peak TQ

***TitaniumTT*** · 05-15-2013, 05:21 PM

Not to be a dick...... but that's quite brave not knowing those two pieces of information when tuning like that....

I would be VERY curious to know what EMAP is and how that external WG dropped it... more importantly - EGT's.

I took my BNR's to under 1B of boost and netted 385wheel in a 3rd gear run on a 6 spd... probably would've been well into the 400's with a 1:1 tranny and stopped tuning there.... EGT's were climbing to 1750 and EMAP was above 2B.... totally ineffiecient.

And not the most obvious question...... with a torque curve like that.... why not go single?

C. Ludwig · 05-15-2013, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Not to be a dick....but with a torque curve like that.... why not go single?

.

mazpower · 05-15-2013, 07:57 PM

I'd love to see this car on a Dyno Dynamics or Superflow dyno. I have yet to see an accurate run on a Dynapack, they're always inflated. Not knocking you OP, in either case impressive numbers for BNRs.

RICE RACING · 05-15-2013, 09:57 PM

When you test them in real life, like in a car and see how fast they accelerate then you truly know how much power you have

Do you have access to a VBOX? I can share heaps of twins cars (BNR's, RF420's, other custom units and stock at up to 1.5bar boost) I have tested and they are MUCH slower irrespective of dyno types used to get the numbers. Check out my web page under VBOX testing and dyno dreams.

http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-ii...ing-tuning.htm < *see where you fit here* see real VBOX power @ wheels and I call dyno dynamics BS machines LOL as they give inflated numbers LOL

Do a simple test of your car in 3rd gear from 90kmh to 140kmh and let me know how fast it is. Lets add it to the FAST FD thread

You will be around 3.2 to 3.4 second range is my guess single turbo on lower boost is under 3 seconds as per TTT's comments. and really fast cars are cracking 2 second barrier.with same 470rwhp LOL but its real power based of physics! not dyno guesses with mythical factors in software code

FAST FD thread >>>>> http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ad.php?t=14704

RICE RACING · 05-16-2013, 02:12 AM

I like your project too

(just read the thread on the external gate mod)

It is the reason why I never went to do it after trying so many vendors twins run in parallel ........... the boost curve and matching torque is always poor.

By example my 82mm compressor 1400bhp capable turbo spools faster and earlier than your twins

but it is not as cool LOL.......... I think that is what TTT is getting at with his single comments.

The BNR's I tested showed the same power band as you have found and its roughly line ball with a ball bearing GT28 cartridges run in the twins frame in parallel. Just a poor set up really but if you want to do it then its your car

and everyone is different.

Will be good if you can test it and we can see how fast it is

90kmh to 140kmh in 3rd
100kmh to 200kmh (3rd to 4th) and lets see some numbers

ball joint · 05-16-2013, 11:58 AM

I'll see if I can get my hands on a V-Box to get numbers. As for the dyno number, on BNR's website the power numbers they list are from GoodfellaFD3s when he ran them, and he did it on a Dynapak. This Dynapak is the same Dynapak that Logan at Defined tunes on, so if my numbers are BS; then so are the numbers he makes on his N/A 3-rotor.

As for why I haven't gone single, for the same reason that I tune rotary's, it's different and it's unexplored territory. I will go single one of these days, but until then I want to see what is possible with the stock frame turbos.

Thanks for all the compliments!

JhnRX7 · 05-16-2013, 01:03 PM

I believe what Rice is saying is that using a dyno to rate the performance of your car is ill conceived as each dyno reads a bit differently (even between same manufactures) and it is not accurately comparable. Dyno's are primarily a tuning tool regardless of how the masses actually use them.

Using a V-Box or similar GPS based performance meter you can accurately measure the rate of acceleration of your car. This can then be directly compared to the measured figures of other cars to give you a good baseline of the performance of your car. Granted, doing this correctly is slightly more difficult than strapping your car down to a dyno because you will likely be breaking any posted speed limits and you need a flat stretch of clear road.

***TitaniumTT*** · 05-16-2013, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

When you test them in real life, like in a car and see how fast they accelerate then you truly know how much power you have

Do you have access to a VBOX? I can share heaps of twins cars (BNR's, RF420's, other custom units and stock at up to 1.5bar boost) I have tested and they are MUCH slower irrespective of dyno types used to get the numbers. Check out my web page under VBOX testing and dyno dreams.

http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-ii...ing-tuning.htm < *see where you fit here* see real VBOX power @ wheels and I call dyno dynamics BS machines LOL as they give inflated numbers LOL

Do a simple test of your car in 3rd gear from 90kmh to 140kmh and let me know how fast it is. Lets add it to the FAST FD thread

You will be around 3.2 to 3.4 second range is my guess single turbo on lower boost is under 3 seconds as per TTT's comments. and really fast cars are cracking 2 second barrier.with same 470rwhp LOL but its real power based of physics! not dyno guesses with mythical factors in software code

FAST FD thread >>>>> http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ad.php?t=14704

Truff.... I need to find a VBox.... I believe a poster or 2 in this thread have one....

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

I like your project too

(just read the thread on the external gate mod)

I like it as well... I've said for years that the turbo's are capable, but the mani and the plumbing are what really hold them back.... then again, I'm logging EMAP and the individual compressor outputs and pre-intercooler AIT's... I'm not just guess

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

It is the reason why I never went to do it after trying so many vendors twins run in parallel ........... the boost curve and matching torque is always poor.

By example my 82mm compressor 1400bhp capable turbo spools faster and earlier than your twins

but it is not as cool LOL.......... I think that is what TTT is getting at with his single comments.

Basically exactely what I'm getting at....

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

Will be good if you can test it and we can see how fast it is

90kmh to 140kmh in 3rd
100kmh to 200kmh (3rd to 4th) and lets see some numbers

That....

Quote:

Originally Posted by ball joint

I'll see if I can get my hands on a V-Box to get numbers. As for the dyno number, on BNR's website the power numbers they list are from GoodfellaFD3s when he ran them, and he did it on a Dynapak. This Dynapak is the same Dynapak that Logan at Defined tunes on, so if my numbers are BS; then so are the numbers he makes on his N/A 3-rotor.

As for why I haven't gone single, for the same reason that I tune rotary's, it's different and it's unexplored territory. I will go single one of these days, but until then I want to see what is possible with the stock frame turbos.

Thanks for all the compliments!

In that case.... go for it! Personally I got tired of replacing cartridges 2-4 times a year so I gave up with the twin idea... on the stock mani

Quote:

Originally Posted by JhnRX7

I believe what Rice is saying is that using a dyno to rate the performance of your car is ill conceived as each dyno reads a bit differently (even between same manufactures) and it is not accurately comparable. Dyno's are primarily a tuning tool regardless of how the masses actually use them.

THAT..... although... I've been "street tuning" my car for years now... there are certain places you cannot get to on a dyno, and certain places you can't get to on the street....

Quote:

Originally Posted by JhnRX7

Using a V-Box or similar GPS based performance meter you can accurately measure the rate of acceleration of your car. This can then be directly compared to the measured figures of other cars to give you a good baseline of the performance of your car. Granted, doing this correctly is slightly more difficult than strapping your car down to a dyno because you will likely be breaking any posted speed limits and you need a flat stretch of clear road.

John, you and Dan have a VBox correct? That's not the box I used @ Lightning that day is it?

JhnRX7 · 05-17-2013, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

In that case.... go for it! Personally I got tired of replacing cartridges 2-4 times a year so I gave up with the twin idea... on the stock mani

THIS! Im about to jump ship from the twins myself... Just lost another cartridge and I have not even done a track day yet this season. I had the twins on and off about 8 times last year (for various reasons), not sure if I can bring myself to do it again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

THAT..... although... I've been "street tuning" my car for years now... there are certain places you cannot get to on a dyno, and certain places you can't get to on the street....

I have completely tuned my car on the street, however I REALLY want to get onto a load dyno to do some steady state tuning. BTW, my ECU setup has changed a bit since we last spoke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

John, you and Dan have a VBox correct? That's not the box I used @ Lightning that day is it?

Correct, and it is the same one you used. We have a Racelogic Performance Box. It is made by the same company as the V-Box, but is less expensive than a full blown V-Box. Great for track days and acceleration tests.
http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php/en/our-products

As another option, you could get the GPS unit for your AIM dash and it will accomplish the same thing. However you cant transfer that between cars.

ball joint · 05-16-2013, 07:07 PM

I've been looking more into EMap since your suggestion and have found conflicting advice. What sensor/method do you recommend in order to best log EMAP?

TheDriver216 · 05-16-2013, 08:22 PM

Grats man!!!!... is it going to be at the B3R dyno day?

05-14-2013, 05:05 PM	#1
ball joint The Newbie Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 23 Rep Power: 0	BNR stage 3's (470whp 400tq) I haven't had a had chance to completely dial in my tune since I fitted the 4" thick ETS front mount, AEM coils, and external wastegate but I had a chance to dyno the car on Slow Motion Motorsports Dynapack (which is the same dynapack Logan at Defined tunes on). Needless to say; was happy with the results but I know there's still more in it as I was only running 19psi for this pull. I was getting breakup at high RPM as it's still too rich up top but I was still able to get the peak power and torque numbers before it started to breakup at high RPM. Here's the link to the original thread from when I broke the BNR record which has more details about the build.http://www.rx7club.com/time-slips-dy...record-971246/ If you're curious about the external wastegate on the stock frame turbos here's that thread as well. http://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generatio...-done-1000553/ Time to update this part of your website :-) "The BNR Stage 3's have the world record on most RWHP made off bolt up hybrid turbochargers for the RX7! 426 RWHP and 365 RWTQ was made at 18 psi of boost! " Last edited by ball joint; 05-14-2013 at 05:07 PM.

05-15-2013, 12:41 AM	#2
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	Curious to what your EGT's and EMAP was. what are you running for an ECU? Pump or race gas? timing and AFRS @ peak TQ? __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

05-15-2013, 12:41 AM	#3
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	Curious to what your EGT's and EMAP was. what are you running for an ECU? Pump or race gas? timing and AFRS @ peak TQ? __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

05-15-2013, 05:21 PM	#5
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	Not to be a dick...... but that's quite brave not knowing those two pieces of information when tuning like that.... I would be VERY curious to know what EMAP is and how that external WG dropped it... more importantly - EGT's. I took my BNR's to under 1B of boost and netted 385wheel in a 3rd gear run on a 6 spd... probably would've been well into the 400's with a 1:1 tranny and stopped tuning there.... EGT's were climbing to 1750 and EMAP was above 2B.... totally ineffiecient. And not the most obvious question...... with a torque curve like that.... why not go single? __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

05-15-2013, 07:57 PM	#7
mazpower Rawr Bearclaw Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: The Souf Posts: 197 Rep Power: 18	I'd love to see this car on a Dyno Dynamics or Superflow dyno. I have yet to see an accurate run on a Dynapack, they're always inflated. Not knocking you OP, in either case impressive numbers for BNRs. __________________ Illicit Performance Rotary building, porting, tuning, chassis dyno services www.illicitperformance.com

05-15-2013, 09:57 PM	#8
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	When you test them in real life, like in a car and see how fast they accelerate then you truly know how much power you have Do you have access to a VBOX? I can share heaps of twins cars (BNR's, RF420's, other custom units and stock at up to 1.5bar boost) I have tested and they are MUCH slower irrespective of dyno types used to get the numbers. Check out my web page under VBOX testing and dyno dreams. http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-ii...ing-tuning.htm < see where you fit here see real VBOX power @ wheels and I call dyno dynamics BS machines LOL as they give inflated numbers LOL Do a simple test of your car in 3rd gear from 90kmh to 140kmh and let me know how fast it is. Lets add it to the FAST FD thread You will be around 3.2 to 3.4 second range is my guess single turbo on lower boost is under 3 seconds as per TTT's comments. and really fast cars are cracking 2 second barrier.with same 470rwhp LOL but its real power based of physics! not dyno guesses with mythical factors in software code FAST FD thread >>>>> http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ad.php?t=14704 __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration Last edited by RICE RACING; 05-15-2013 at 10:08 PM.

05-16-2013, 02:12 AM	#9
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	I like your project too (just read the thread on the external gate mod) It is the reason why I never went to do it after trying so many vendors twins run in parallel ........... the boost curve and matching torque is always poor. By example my 82mm compressor 1400bhp capable turbo spools faster and earlier than your twins but it is not as cool LOL.......... I think that is what TTT is getting at with his single comments. The BNR's I tested showed the same power band as you have found and its roughly line ball with a ball bearing GT28 cartridges run in the twins frame in parallel. Just a poor set up really but if you want to do it then its your car and everyone is different. Will be good if you can test it and we can see how fast it is 90kmh to 140kmh in 3rd 100kmh to 200kmh (3rd to 4th) and lets see some numbers __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration

05-16-2013, 11:58 AM	#10
ball joint The Newbie Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 23 Rep Power: 0	I'll see if I can get my hands on a V-Box to get numbers. As for the dyno number, on BNR's website the power numbers they list are from GoodfellaFD3s when he ran them, and he did it on a Dynapak. This Dynapak is the same Dynapak that Logan at Defined tunes on, so if my numbers are BS; then so are the numbers he makes on his N/A 3-rotor. As for why I haven't gone single, for the same reason that I tune rotary's, it's different and it's unexplored territory. I will go single one of these days, but until then I want to see what is possible with the stock frame turbos. Thanks for all the compliments!

05-16-2013, 01:03 PM	#11
JhnRX7 Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 142 Rep Power: 18	I believe what Rice is saying is that using a dyno to rate the performance of your car is ill conceived as each dyno reads a bit differently (even between same manufactures) and it is not accurately comparable. Dyno's are primarily a tuning tool regardless of how the masses actually use them. Using a V-Box or similar GPS based performance meter you can accurately measure the rate of acceleration of your car. This can then be directly compared to the measured figures of other cars to give you a good baseline of the performance of your car. Granted, doing this correctly is slightly more difficult than strapping your car down to a dyno because you will likely be breaking any posted speed limits and you need a flat stretch of clear road.

05-16-2013, 07:07 PM	#14
ball joint The Newbie Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 23 Rep Power: 0	I've been looking more into EMap since your suggestion and have found conflicting advice. What sensor/method do you recommend in order to best log EMAP?

05-16-2013, 08:22 PM	#15
TheDriver216 Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 159 Rep Power: 18	Grats man!!!!... is it going to be at the B3R dyno day?