The Number One Reliability Mod for the Rotary Engine.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by RETed

Just trying to think outside the box...

How about we just drill through the rotor housing and just add an extra coolant line?
I've seen this done to oiling systems on 13B's but not for the coolant system...
Adding an extra coolant line into the area would:
1) add more coolant if the system can handle it, and
2) create more turbulent flow due to the "cross flow"


-Ted

I highly doubt temp is an issue at all, you only need to look at the body of the spark plug and the FACT that carbon so readily builds up there, any meaningful heat would mean no carbon would accumulate there, it is much more a sign of a mismatch of apex seal materials, after market "modifications" lol or springs used by some people where the apex seal starts to lift off the rotor housing well before the spark plug hole you see it on some engines you don't see it on others.

That area on the leading plug is very cold (look at the amount of carbon accumulated on the spark plugs for verification of that fact) much more so than on the trailing plugs which are shielded

It's just the apex seal decides to jump off the housing and this is exaggerated by crap tunes especially ones relying on methadone injection (borderline detonation machines) that are causing apex seals to bounce all over the place

You see many "precision" self called "shops" wont even use new rotors let alone rotor housings in their builds and they wonder why they get odd wear patterns on the pieces of garbage they self assemble and post all over the internet and theorize as to why they get fucked up wear patterns in engines, let alone how they tune them, or what temperatures they run at.... it laughable at best, disturbing at the least.

[RICE RACING]

After Market apex seal after a few hours


Stock apex seal after thousand hours

[Barry Bordes]

Originally Posted by Pete_89T2

Barry - were those wall temp curves something you generated yourself through testing or were they found in a reference somewhere? Would be cool if someone with an ample supply of housings, appropiate test equipment and skills could rig up a test to do a comparitive evaluation of these techniques. What I'm thinking is the housing can be installed in a test jig that allows coolant to flow through at a controlled rate. A torch or similar localized heat source to heat the area of the plug holes on the housing, which would be instrumented to measure & map the temperature distribution of heat applied. Then simultaneously measure & map coolant temps as was apparently done to generate those curves. The curves would then answer which technique or combination nets the best result.

Wow! Lots of replies.
Pete that wall temp diagram is from Yamamoto’s book, but it is very similar to those in the NSU and Mercedes papers.

What I would like you all to do is to go out into your garage and grab an old housing.
Now examine the water passages around the periphery. You can see how Mazda is trying to balance heat in the housing.
Their plan was disrupted by the plug move.

Now look back at that picture of the water flowing through the housing.
Do you really want to flow more water though section #6 which by its size is depriving flow through #5?
If you think higher velocity is the answer than restrict #6.




We are not going to run out of flow. It increases with RPM to the point of pump cavitation (for me around 7400rpm).

I realize this information is not for everyone. It will only be logical to some. It is really for those guys in the background who are quietly trying to build more dependability into their engines. You know who you are.

Barry

[RX200013B]

Thanks Barry, now does this information hold true to the S4 and older housings as i "thought" the S4 and older housings had a bigger "gap" between the plugs?

"the home engine builder"
Scott.

[My5ABaby]

Originally Posted by RX200013B

Thanks Barry, now does this information hold true to the S4 and older housings as i "thought" the S4 and older housings had a bigger "gap" between the plugs?

"the home engine builder"
Scott.

The first picture appears to have the 5/6th port actuators as on an S4 N/A.

[RICE RACING]

People need to look up conduction, convection, & radiation. Do some basic experiments of you own "at home" you will see water flow is not your problem at all.

Apex seal materials, springs, and tuning + theology to certain rubbish set ups are the single biggest reliability issues in rotaries.

Use the right parts
Keep the "whole motor" cool
Keep the inside of it cool (correct tuning)

And you will not see these carbon wings lol, be it at 200bhp or 1200bhp on a 13B (all on stock std 13B-REW rotor housings)

[rxspeed7]

I'll see if I can dig up a pair of CLR housings that had been modified for extra cooling tubes added for more cooling in this area for his road racing cars. He really has a lot of good experience and ideas for keeping motors alive! Most of his engine and race cars see no less than 7k rpm for hours on end.

[RICE RACING]

There is many different things I could rate as #1 mods before fucking around with this on the internet advice of others.

That's just me though.

Calling this #1 reliability mod is so off base its not even funny, not to make a point Barry but it just is.

Put in a proper cooling system
Put in a proper thermostat
Put in proper drive pulleys
Tune your car right
Run the right parts on a rebuild
Find a legitimate rebuilder (#1 best bit of advice)
Find a rebuilder who has a running car to show what he preaches lol
Run a proper ignition system
Tune the car correctly
If its turbocharged make sure its water injected (absolute #1 reliability mod)
Don't use after market apex seals (#2 reliability mod)
Don't go to BDC for anything (#1 reliability mod)
Don't read anthying written by Howard Coleman (#1 reliability mod)
Use the internet mostly for porn (#1 reliability mod)

I've never had "carbon wings" LOL like I stated, some do, you have to question why???? probably cause they don't do any of the other basics properly???? Mis diagnosis and false conclusions abound........ welcome to forum hypothesis

[t_g_farrell]

+1 on all the stuff Rice just stated.

Heres a pic of the RB solution. I know theres some engineering time behind
this as well.

[Roen]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

There is many different things I could rate as #1 mods before fucking around with this on the internet advice of others.

That's just me though.

Calling this #1 reliability mod is so off base its not even funny, not to make a point Barry but it just is.

Put in a proper cooling system
Put in a proper thermostat
Put in proper drive pulleys
Tune your car right
Run the right parts on a rebuild
Find a legitimate rebuilder (#1 best bit of advice)
Find a rebuilder who has a running car to show what he preaches lol
Run a proper ignition system
Tune the car correctly
If its turbocharged make sure its water injected (absolute #1 reliability mod)
Don't use after market apex seals (#2 reliability mod)
Don't go to BDC for anything (#1 reliability mod)
Don't read anthying written by Howard Coleman (#1 reliability mod)
Use the internet mostly for porn (#1 reliability mod)

I've never had "carbon wings" LOL like I stated, some do, you have to question why???? probably cause they don't do any of the other basics properly???? Mis diagnosis and false conclusions abound........ welcome to forum hypothesis

Not a fan of the REC Apex Seals?

http://www.rotaryengine.com/products/apexseals.htm

[Barry Bordes]

Wouldn’t it be more appropriate in a technical section ie. not the lounge, for responses to include a source supporting an opinion. For instance the effects of cooling… flow vs. velocity.

RX200013B- I am not sure when the widening of the plug spacing took place. I am more familar with 3rd Gens. Maybe someone can enlighten us.

rxspeed7- I would love to see some of Carlos’ cooling modifications. He is one of our Rotary Intellects.

How about the Factory Racing Engines. Here is a picture of the R26B racing housing. "The Money is No Object” project. What do their housings look like? It looks similar to the one being proposed. Well I'll be darned!
Barry

[RETed]

Originally Posted by Roen

Not a fan of the REC Apex Seals?

http://www.rotaryengine.com/products/apexseals.htm

Rick Engman's place?


-Ted

[just startn]

BARRY,

Can you copy and post all the information(if you have time) that has been gone over on the "evil forum" forever ago. With all the real data, real tests, real results, real conclusions, real pictures, real sae papers ect ect.

[Barry Bordes]

Originally Posted by just startn

BARRY,

Can you copy and post all the information(if you have time) that has been gone over on the "evil forum" forever ago. With all the real data, real tests, real results, real conclusions, real pictures, real sae papers ect ect.

That is probably more than I have time for. My typing is so slow and it seems to iritate some people when "the secrets" are revealed.

Chuck Westbrook and arghx have a great collection of papers to select from under Chuck's Notes.

I am not sure if it is proper for me to link the papers, but most can be found if titles are supplied.

What are you looking in particular?
The process for cutting perfect sideseals?
Making a cold air filter box?
Pre and post water/meth injection?
Combustion chamber pressure tests?
Two-stroke oil injection conversion with block-off plate?
Port scribing tools?
AFR Corrections Excel program?
Waterpump mods?
Oil pump and passage mods?
Oil pick-up mod?
Boost controller fail-safe off without AI operating wiring diagram?
.....Maybe PM would be best.
Barry

[Roen]

Originally Posted by RETed

Rick Engman's place?


-Ted

Huh?

I only ask because a trusted engine builder raves about them. Those and the Goopy.